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smurf
Post subject: Re: French Capital-Ships Studies 1926-1931Posted: February 14th, 2015, 8:10 pm
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I said "France had an allowance of 35,000tons to replace earlier capital ships in 1927, so could build two of these small battlecruisers then."
DL said "France and Italy were allowed to replace two old battleships each for a total of 70,000 tons per country."

Both correct. The 1922 Washington Treaty had a general 10 year restriction on replacement of existing ships retained under the Treaty, but exceptions negotiated for France and Italy allowed them each to build 35,000tons of capital ships in 1927, and a further 35,000 tons in 1929. France's two ships replaced were Jean Bart and Courbet, scrapped in 1930. I chose to mention only the 1927 quota not just to keep the post short, but to make clear in reply to seeker36340 why the battlecruiser design was called for in 1926 when Deutschland was not laid down until 1929.
The Treaty would allow France to build four ships of 17,500tons or three ships of (strictly) 23,333 tons in 1929 (or of course by then two ships at the Treaty limit of 35,000tons each) with further tranches of 35000tons from 1931 onwards as existing ships reached the general replacement age of 20 years. (To do that in full of course needed dock resources and money. Dunkerque was not laid down until December 1932; Strasbourg in November 1934.)
France's capital ship replacement schedule under the Washington Treaty is to be found at http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pre-war/1922/fr_tabl.html

I will stay tuned.


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David Latuch
Post subject: Re: French Capital-Ships Studies 1926-1931Posted: February 14th, 2015, 9:06 pm
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smurf wrote:
I said "France had an allowance of 35,000tons to replace earlier capital ships in 1927, so could build two of these small battlecruisers then."
DL said "France and Italy were allowed to replace two old battleships each for a total of 70,000 tons per country."

Both correct. The 1922 Washington Treaty had a general 10 year restriction on replacement of existing ships retained under the Treaty, but exceptions negotiated for France and Italy allowed them each to build 35,000tons of capital ships in 1927, and a further 35,000 tons in 1929. France's two ships replaced were Jean Bart and Courbet, scrapped in 1930. I chose to mention only the 1927 quota not just to keep the post short, but to make clear in reply to seeker36340 why the battlecruiser design was called for in 1926 when Deutschland was not laid down until 1929.
The Treaty would allow France to build four ships of 17,500tons or three ships of (strictly) 23,333 tons in 1929 (or of course by then two ships at the Treaty limit of 35,000tons each) with further tranches of 35000tons from 1931 onwards as existing ships reached the general replacement age of 20 years. (To do that in full of course needed dock resources and money. Dunkerque was not laid down until December 1932; Strasbourg in November 1934.)
France's capital ship replacement schedule under the Washington Treaty is to be found at http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pre-war/1922/fr_tabl.html

I will stay tuned.
The lack of an adequate infrastructure is the major reason why the 37,000 ton BC design was rejected; the cost of the ship plus the construction cost for slipways etc. would have been way out of France’s budget.

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seeker36340
Post subject: Re: French Capital-Ships Studies 1926-1931Posted: February 15th, 2015, 12:59 am
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Jean Bart was renamed Ocean, disarmed and hulked in 1936. She was sunk by allied air attack in 1944. Courbet was a gunnery training ship, escaped to England with her sister Paris, and was expended as a breakwater for one of the Mulberrys at Normandy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courbet_class_battleship


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smurf
Post subject: Re: French Capital-Ships Studies 1926-1931Posted: February 15th, 2015, 9:19 am
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Yes. I should have said 'demilitarised' not scrapped. The 1930 London treaty was in force.


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maomatic
Post subject: Re: French Capital-Ships Studies 1926-1931Posted: February 15th, 2015, 12:56 pm
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Very nice work David!


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eswube
Post subject: Re: French Capital-Ships Studies 1926-1931Posted: February 16th, 2015, 8:32 am
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Very interesting!


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David Latuch
Post subject: Re: French Capital-Ships Studies 1926-1931Posted: February 18th, 2015, 8:05 pm
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The drawing below is of a 1930–1931: 23,690 ton Protected Cruiser whose General Characteristics were:

Length: 643 ft/196m
Beam: 92ft/28m
Speed: 29knots
Armament:
Ten 305mm guns(1xIII, 1xIV, 1xIII)
Eight 138mm guns (4xII)
Sixteen 100mm guns (8xII)

[ img ]

The advent of the Deutschland-Class Panzershiffe rendered this design obsolete; however, the profile of this design, along with the forward layout of the main battery found in the earlier 17,000 ton design will carry over into what will become the Dunkerque-Class Battlecruiser/Fast Battleship.

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KHT
Post subject: Re: French Capital-Ships Studies 1926-1931Posted: February 18th, 2015, 8:09 pm
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I rather like this one! Are there any known numbers in regards to the armour? Either way, excellent work, David! :D


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David Latuch
Post subject: Re: French Capital-Ships Studies 1926-1931Posted: February 18th, 2015, 8:21 pm
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KHT wrote:
I rather like this one! Are there any known numbers in regards to the armour? Either way, excellent work, David! :D
I believe Jordan said there weren't any reliable figures on armor.

Jordan, John, Warships After Washington: The Development of the Five Major Fleets, 1922-1930 – February 15, 2012, p 104.

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Colombamike
Post subject: Re: French Capital-Ships Studies 1926-1931Posted: February 18th, 2015, 9:16 pm
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KHT wrote:
I rather like this one! Are there any known numbers in regards to the armour ?
17 500 tons (Armor mainly intended to defeat italian 8"in cruisers-guns).
Belt 155-180mm, Deck 75mm, CT 100-130mm, Turrets 80 to 155mm
speed 34 to 35 knots...

37 000 tons : A1 & A2, 1927-1928 (upgraded armor from the 17 500 tons design)
Belt 220-280mm, Torpedo-bulkhead 50mm, Deck 75mm + 15mm, CT 120-155mm, Turrets 120 to 155mm
Speed around 31-33 knots

37 000 tons : B, 1928, 16"in gun design (Armor mainly intended to defeat italian 12" battleships-guns).
Belt 220-280mm, Torpedo-bulkhead 50mm, Deck 75mm + 15mm, CT 200-230mm, Turrets 180-250mm
Speed 27 knots

23 690 tons : 1930-1931 design (newer & improved armor disposition):
Belt 180-220mm, Torpedo-bulkhead 50mm, Deck 80mm + 15mm, CT 220mm, Turrets 155 to 300mm
Speed 29+ knots


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