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New RN Frigates
http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6406		 Page 8 of 12
Author:  Hood [ September 12th, 2017, 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New RN Frigates
That analysis on Shipbuilding Strategy and Type 31 does not inspire me with confidence at all.
There seems to be some extremely muddled thinking at the MOD. The Type 26 build rate is laughably slow, the Type 31 build rate far too ambitious and the plan to get rid of the Type 45s at the end of their 25-year lives is either a political trick to get more money or it indicates the Type 45s would be too expensive to upgrade despite all the supposed growth designed into them. Also, I'm guessing the MOD sees some resale value if they sell them at 25 years old to Brazil or a similar nation (seemingly all ex-RN ships end up in Brazil, HMS Ocean looks set to be the next).

I've always been against the idea of the Type 31 and it doesn't seem to be improving as a concept. £250 million per ship seems an arbitrary and low figure to aim for. Rather than propping up a dying industry with inferior ships (unless the yards can over-provide on capability versus cost) the MOD should bite the bullet and just buy or licence-build one of the many successful designs already on the market.

Constabulary (not sure when this term entered naval use!) and disaster relief duties are probably not entirely compatible with a frigate. Shouldn't the Rivers already be doing the first and disaster relief implies a more flexible-role vessel (and a mission bay and large heli deck are only 'adaptable' features and not likely to feature on the ships at completion or as built).
Author:  Blackbuck [ September 12th, 2017, 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New RN Frigates
Hood wrote: *September 12th, 2017, 8:47 am
Rather than propping up a dying industry with inferior ships (unless the yards can over-provide on capability versus cost) the MOD should bite the bullet and just buy or licence-build one of the many successful designs already on the market.
I've been of that exact school of thought for some time, it is utterly pointless in trying to save a dying industry to try and appease the Clyde shipbuilders and their associated unions. At the end of the day all that's going to happen is we'll get less than the (5?) total and end up spending double the projected figure on them :roll:
Author:  erik_t [ September 12th, 2017, 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New RN Frigates
Hood wrote: *September 12th, 2017, 8:47 am
I've always been against the idea of the Type 31 and it doesn't seem to be improving as a concept. £250 million per ship seems an arbitrary and low figure to aim for. Rather than propping up a dying industry with inferior ships (unless the yards can over-provide on capability versus cost) the MOD should bite the bullet and just buy or licence-build one of the many successful designs already on the market.

Constabulary (not sure when this term entered naval use!) and disaster relief duties are probably not entirely compatible with a frigate. Shouldn't the Rivers already be doing the first and disaster relief implies a more flexible-role vessel (and a mission bay and large heli deck are only 'adaptable' features and not likely to feature on the ships at completion or as built).
If it's any consolation, the USN doesn't seem to have any ****ing idea what they want out of a frigate, either.
Author:  waterwings [ September 12th, 2017, 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New RN Frigates
UK plc doesn't seem to get a great deal of value for money for many warships it procures, and I can't help feel that the T23 kit simply bolted on to T26 while losing key capabilities (torpedoes, anti-ship missiles) for such a large price is highly problematic for a Navy that used to pride itself on operating only a high-end, full spectrum escort force.

The current trend of the Navy towards a two-tier system would on the face of it make sense, if the 'constabulary' duties currently being fulfilled by either £1bn destroyers or RFA auxiliaries could be handed off to lower-end frigates/OPVs actually suited to the tasks they're given, leaving the more limited number of high-end frigates and destroyers for actual warfighting and carrier escort duties.

However, the procurement of OPVs with no real capability increase over the hulls they replace limits the value of what could have been a potent little fleet (consider the new £348m Rivers vs the £400m Khareef class). Even a hangar would have significantly increased the versatility of the OPVs in terms of standing tasking, with the ability to carry utility helicopters on a permanent basis.

The problems in procuring weaponry, systems and ships at inflated cost due either to manufacturing monopolies or general slow lead times for complicated systems means the MOD procures vessels which are designed 'for but not with' and in the current financial climate that might as well be 'for and never with'. Capability cuts are only really visible to the Navy; the public have a very limited idea about any of the RN's problems and as long as hulls keep being produced there's no real prospect of that changing.

Strategic planning wise, with Carrier Strike eventually ramping up, the forward deployment of the new assets has been touted, but like the French and the Dutch do, a forward deployed OPV in the Caribbean for general constabulary duties and the RFA there to provide the major disaster response/mothership sort of thing they already do seems like a sensible proposal which might actually get some traction. As for the major fleet units, the extortionate but watered down T26 will be stuck on escort/Gulf duty and the T31 will probably lack any systems to make it suitable for that tier of work but will also be too expensive to justify a role as a glorified coastal patrol ship. It's frustrating that the financial squeeze just means procuring expensive ships with old equipment aboard, at the cost of regenerating real capability which would punch above its weight, to use a regular MOD phrase.
Author:  Mist [ September 13th, 2017, 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New RN Frigates
erik_t wrote: *September 12th, 2017, 1:59 pm
Hood wrote: *September 12th, 2017, 8:47 am
I've always been against the idea of the Type 31 and it doesn't seem to be improving as a concept. £250 million per ship seems an arbitrary and low figure to aim for. Rather than propping up a dying industry with inferior ships (unless the yards can over-provide on capability versus cost) the MOD should bite the bullet and just buy or licence-build one of the many successful designs already on the market.

Constabulary (not sure when this term entered naval use!) and disaster relief duties are probably not entirely compatible with a frigate. Shouldn't the Rivers already be doing the first and disaster relief implies a more flexible-role vessel (and a mission bay and large heli deck are only 'adaptable' features and not likely to feature on the ships at completion or as built).
If it's any consolation, the USN doesn't seem to have any ****ing idea what they want out of a frigate, either.
The Uk knows what it wants, it just can't afford it.
Author:  Hood [ September 13th, 2017, 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New RN Frigates
But as the article Waterwings linked to says, where is the all the money going on Type 26 when its using stripped out systems from the Type 23s?

If a River costs £348 million (and its a basic OPV) then it makes no sense that by adding a hangar, ballistic protection, more advanced electronic kit and a 76mm gun that its going to work out £98 million cheaper.
Author:  Mist [ September 13th, 2017, 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New RN Frigates
Hood wrote: *September 13th, 2017, 8:14 am
But as the article Waterwings linked to says, where is the all the money going on Type 26 when its using stripped out systems from the Type 23s?

If a River costs £348 million (and its a basic OPV) then it makes no sense that by adding a hangar, ballistic protection, more advanced electronic kit and a 76mm gun that its going to work out £98 million cheaper.
It was £348 million for three Batch 2 Rivers not £348 million each.

plus that order is a tad more complicated then straight up price per hull, the Government was contractually obligated to provide work for BAES to keep the yards open. So it's more accurate to say that £348 million was the cost of maintaining the workforce and facilities at the yard during the lull between aircraft carrier fabrication ending and T26 work beginning.
Author:  superboy [ September 13th, 2017, 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New RN Frigates
this is HTMS Trang, plan to commission in 2019. total cost = £125 million, include 4 harpoon missiles :mrgreen:

[ img ]
Author:  Novice [ September 13th, 2017, 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New RN Frigates
superboy wrote: *September 13th, 2017, 3:26 pm
this is HTMS Trang, plan to commission in 2019. total cost = £125 million, include 4 harpoon missiles :mrgreen:

snip
superboy, are you sure it is the right thread to upload this ship?
Author:  superboy [ September 14th, 2017, 3:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New RN Frigates
sorry Novice (change the photo), i want to compare weapons & sonsers and total cost.

HTMS Krabi first vessel = £67 million, but she aremed second hand 76/62 mm, lowcost fire control radar, and have no SSM missile. UK River class OPV + Hangar+modern weapons & sonsers total cost will increase >= 40 percent
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