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David Latuch
Post subject: Project B-65 Super Type A CruiserPosted: August 11th, 2019, 7:22 pm
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“The Decisive Battle Doctrine (艦隊決戦 Kantai Kessen; "naval fleet decisive battle") was a naval strategy adopted by the Imperial Japanese Navy prior to the Second World War. The theory was derived from the writings of American naval historian Alfred Thayer Mahan . . .”
“Until the 1920s, the Japanese expected this decisive battle to occur near the Ryukyu Islands just south of Japan and to be conducted by surface forces. However, as technology increased, the location projected was moved farther eastward. From the mid 1920s to 1940, the line was somewhere between the Bonin Islands (some 540 nautical miles south of Tokyo) and the Mariana Islands.”

“According to the first stage of the battle plan, fleet submarines would first be used to weaken the American fleet by 10%, then bombers from land bases and aircraft carriers would inflict another 10% casualties. Air strikes launched from carriers would neutralize the American carrier force. Fast heavy cruisers working with destroyer flotillas would attack the US battleships at night, making use of their long-range Type 93 torpedoes to inflict further losses. Now facing a depleted enemy at the limit of his supply chain, this would be the "decisive" stage of the battle, when the battleships of the Combined Fleet, centered on the modern Yamato class, would engage the US battle line. Finally, the older battleships would destroy the surviving remnants of the American fleet.”

“The IJN assigned one division of fast battleships or battlecruisers to give additional firepower to the nocturnal attacks. The Kongō-class battlecruiser were initially assigned to this role and were upgraded to fast battleships over a seven-year period from 1933-1940. The IJN planned to eventually replace the four Kongō battleships with four heavy, "super" cruisers. As envisioned by the IJN in 1936, these ships, the B-65 cruisers, would mount 12-inch guns, carry armor designed to withstand hits from 8-inch shells, and be capable of speeds up to 40 knots. They would be designated as "super-A-class cruisers" to signify their greater status than the A-class ships (heavy cruisers).”

“The plan for the cruiser class was finalized as part of the IJN's Circle Five and Circle Six warship construction plans of 7 January 1941. The plan called for six B-65s to be built in two increments, with the first two to be constructed in Circle 5 with the remainder in Circle 6.[8] By this time, Japanese intelligence had learned the specifications for the United States Navy's Alaska-class large cruisers, which had been authorized for creation by the passage of the Two-Ocean Navy Act and ordered on 5 September 1940. The Japanese believed that these ships would form part of the American battle fleet's screen in times of war. Thus, the B-65s were now intended to counter the threat posed by the Alaska-class cruisers.”

Type: Super Type A cruiser

Displacement:
Standard: 31,905 t (31,401 long tons)[1]
Full-load: 35,000 t (34,000 long tons)
Length:
240 m (790 ft) length at the waterline[1]
246.2 m (808 ft) length overall[1]
Beam: 27.2 m (89 ft)[1]
Draft: 8.8 m (29 ft) (trial)[1]

Propulsion: Four sets of geared turbines and eight Kampon boilers would yield 170,000 metric horsepower (167,674 shaft horsepower); this would have been able to drive the ship at 33 kn (38 mph; 61 km/h)[2]
Endurance: 8,000 mi (13,000 km) at 18 kn (21 mph; 33 km/h)[1]

Armament:
9 × 310 mm (12.2 in)/50 caliber guns (3 × 3)[1]
16 × 100 mm (3.9 in)/65 caliber Type 98 dual-purpose guns (8 × 2)[1]
12 × 25 mm (1 in) Type 96 anti-aircraft guns (6 × 2)[1]
4 × 13 mm (0.5 in) Hotchkiss machine guns (2 × 2)[1]

Armor:
Belt: 190 mm (7.5 in) inclined 20 degrees
Barbettes: 210 mm (8.3 in) to 190 mm (7.5 in)
Conning tower sides: 180 mm (7.1 in)
Conning tower roof: 125 mm (4.9 in)
Deck: 125 mm (5 in)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_B-65_cruiser
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantai_Kessen

My version of the Super-Type A Cruiser is a synthesis derived from the following drawings:

https://warshipprojects.files.wordpress ... -jp301.png
https://frm-wows-us.wgcdn.co/wows_forum ... eb9fa0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xwIp0Ym.png

Project-B65 Super-Type A Cruiser:
[ img ]

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Last edited by David Latuch on August 15th, 2019, 11:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Colombamike
Post subject: Re: Project B-65 Super Type A CruiserPosted: August 11th, 2019, 7:41 pm
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LOL
Stop "copying and pasting", stop reading on wikipedia
Wrong drawing
For a ship designed in 1942 (B-65) (B-64 designed in 1939-1941), think :
- keel laying in 1943
- hull launched in 1945
- commissioned around 1946-1947 :?

= Japanese main warship completed by 1946-1947 =
- your seaplane is totally wrong & obsolete/out of age by 1946 :lol:
- your AA configuration obsolete
- forget the 13,2mm (totally fully obsolette by 1946 :lol: )
- and replace some 25mm by single 40mm mount (type 05 mount ;) )
- use 1945 camo
- use late war japanese radars suit
...


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David Latuch
Post subject: Re: Project B-65 Super Type A CruiserPosted: August 11th, 2019, 7:57 pm
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Colombamike wrote: *
LOL
Stop "copying and pasting", stop reading on wikipedia
Wrong drawing
For a ship designed in 1942 (B-65) (B-64 designed in 1939-1941), think :
- keel laying in 1943
- hull launched in 1945
- commissioned around 1946-1947 :?

= Japanese main warship completed by 1946-1947 =
- your seaplane is totally wrong & obsolete/out of age by 1946 :lol:
- your AA configuration obsolete
- forget the 13,2mm (totally fully obsolette by 1946 :lol: )
- and replace some 25mm by single 40mm mount (type 05 mount ;) )
- use 1945 camo
- use late war japanese radars suit
...
I do believe that you have misconstrued the intent of my post. I make no claims that my depiction is that of how I surmise the ship would be completed as, but rather, it is as I surmise she was designed (i.e. Planes etc. of the era designed rather than as completed. Ergo your comments are de facto irrelevant.)

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Colombamike
Post subject: Re: Project B-65 Super Type A CruiserPosted: August 11th, 2019, 8:05 pm
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David Latuch wrote: *
Ergo your comments are de facto irrelevant.
LOL
Not really.
Even by 1942 :
- you main caliber-gun look wrong (360mm for B-65, only 310mm for B-64 ;) )
- In 1942 you seaplane were FULLY wrong for the future main capital-ship to be completed in the next years ;)
- Even in 1942, you need to add the early japanese radar suit ;)
- add 1942 standard camo
- AND MODIFY YOU TEMPLATE as ("B-65 as designed 1942") and erase all words about 1945 to avoid mistakes.
;) :lol: :mrgreen:


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erik_t
Post subject: Re: Project B-65 Super Type A CruiserPosted: August 11th, 2019, 9:06 pm
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It is remarkable how abrasive some people can be. Maybe ban all of the obnoxious smileys and force everyone to communicate like an adult (or see if they're able).

David, it's quite an attractive rendition, although you've got some stray purple masking color in the top view in the secondary battery.


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Colombamike
Post subject: Re: Project B-65 Super Type A CruiserPosted: August 11th, 2019, 9:17 pm
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erik_t wrote: *
It is remarkable how abrasive some people can be. Maybe ban all of the obnoxious smileys and force everyone to communicate like an adult (or see if they're able).
Instead of insulting, Instead of focusing on "the shape of the mesages", "concentrate on the background"
focus on :
- historical facts
- historical details
- historical sources
Be methodical, not superficial, stop being stupid, we are waiting for your (precise & usefull) contributions on this drawing
Historical, YOU KNOW


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BB1987
Post subject: Re: Project B-65 Super Type A CruiserPosted: August 11th, 2019, 9:33 pm
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If I can suggest some extra sources to be used, I'd mention the one from Lacroix and Wells "Japanese cruiser of the Pacific War", which is usually regarded as one of the most reasearched books on the matter.

[ img ]

The design schematics shown and data claims for an interesting list of different details compared to most rendition of the B-65
first of all, the bow below the waterline has a straight bulb, like the Agano, and Oyodo class cruisers (or Shokaku and Taiho class carriers). Freeboard at the bow is 8 meters, 5,6 meters at midship and 5 at the stern. Mean draft is 8,8m, beam 27,5. Waterline length 240m and overall 245m (all difference at the bow, the stern above the waterline is straight).

Armament, as of 1941 (during the January and September fifth and sixth fleet replenisment programs) called for:
-Three triple 310mm main guns (the proposal to fit 356mm guns never went really anywhere near a finalized design. And there is no B-64 with 310mm and B-65 with 356mm guns, it was always and only called B-65. B-64 was the denomination for the Amagi class battlecruisers back in the early 1920s)
-Eight twin 100mm guns
-Four triple 25mm machine guns
-Two twin 13mm machine guns (yes, for sure they would have been nowhere around if those ships had been built, but if we are talking about as designed, then they are definitely there)

Reconnnaissance floatplanes were to be three Mitsubishi F1M, served by a single centerline fitted 26m catapult (kure type 2 mod-11 n°2)

(explanation of the various numbered parts)
1-twin 13mm MGs
2-type 94 HA directors with 4,5m integrated rangefinder
3-1,5m navigational rangefinder
4-type 94 main gun director with 8m integrated rangefinder
5-triple 25mm MGs
6-type 92shiki 110cm searchlight
7-kure type 2 mod-11 n°2 26m catapult
8-seaplane handling deck
9-aircraft and boat handling crane

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Colombamike
Post subject: Re: Project B-65 Super Type A CruiserPosted: August 11th, 2019, 10:18 pm
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BB1987 wrote: *
I'd mention the one from Lacroix and Wells "Japanese cruiser of the Pacific War", which is usually regarded as one of the most reasearched books on the matter.
"Japanese Cruiser of the Pacific War" (Eric Lacroix & Linton Wells II, Naval Institute Press, Anaapolis Maryland, USA, 1997).

Hummm, not sure BB1987 :) , simply a Fucking copy from the original japanese source of "WARSHIP INTERNATIONAL - WINTER 1969 ;) "
You have 30 years of delay BB1987 ?

I reassure you, I search the 1942-1945 original Japanese sources, but it takes time

WARSHIP INTERNATIONAL - WINTER 1969 - pages 48/49, Hajime Fukaya refs sources...
[ img ]

[ img ]


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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: Project B-65 Super Type A CruiserPosted: August 11th, 2019, 10:29 pm
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No need for foul language ;) :ugeek: :lol: :roll: :evil:

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paul_541
Post subject: Re: Project B-65 Super Type A CruiserPosted: August 12th, 2019, 2:58 am
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Really interesting design David Latuch ! Your work is very a honnest and good rendering of the japanese projected WW2 ships. :)

On the other hand, without any interest in this "fact fight", I would just point out that dont see any need of rushing to make you ship more "historical". I know that it is some times frustrating to invest time in a project and then some people arrived and complain about your rendering... After all, it is up to you to make modifications to your drawing as you wanted.

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