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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 19th, 2020, 11:19 pm
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This project was eliminated.


Last edited by Cargil48 on November 18th, 2020, 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 20th, 2020, 12:28 pm
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The project "Prinz Alfons" was eliminated.


Last edited by Cargil48 on November 18th, 2020, 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 22nd, 2020, 11:23 pm
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emperor_andreas wrote: *
A 9x15-in. gunned Salmon & Gluckstein? Nice! Can't wait to see Bismarck and Tirpitz and their successors!
I can't draw new designs from scratch, as said above. But what I can is upload already made designs stored in my files. Taking into account the AU scenario described in the beginning, in 1939 Germany had a very advancded hull construction for what would become the BB Bismarck battleship. Given all the previous considerationjs, would Germany need to spend that amount of money to finish the ship? Germany had in those times (end of the thirties) regained the confidence of the UK as well as of sevceral other European states with which it had signed mostly free trade agreements. Bur it had also secretly signed some separate agreemkents of mutual defence cooperation. The UK was in those times very concerned with its vast empire, and with the upheavals occuring more and more, starting with India and with Egypt, mainly. The Netherlands had also incresing problems in its East India's colonies and the Japanese threat became increasingly bigger. Indochina produced two main products Japan needed in an increasing level, oil and rubber. But the Netherlandws had no means at all to stand up against an eventual Japaneese incursion. And here was the opportunity the German government saw, back in 1938/39, to act as an "anchor" to help some countries to face their respective threats, mainly Finland against the soviets and the Netherlands in East India. This is why in late 1938 Berlin gave the final "go ahead" to finish its first real battleship, maintaining its main armament, four double Drh.L. C/34e type turrets with two 38cm radar guided cannons each, firing normally 38cm "Sprenggranaten" (armour piercing granades) at a maximal range of about 35km.

One big change to the original plans was that four steam turbines with four shafts in total were installed instead of the three units originally planned. These Brown, Bovery geared turbines were located amidships in separate and watertight compartments, each turbine fed by four Wagner high pressure boilers, allowing each to deliver a maximum output of 50.000 shp. The engines were installed in such a way that the big three bladed screws on each side were counter-rotating.

[ img ]

Regarding the dimensions, these had been previously altered in 1936, when the keel was to be laid down: The overall length passed from 241,6 m to hefty 268,8 m, the maximum width (beam) from 36m to 39,75m and the overall displacement from 50.300 tons at full combat readiness to 53.760 tons. The basic hull design of the front part was slightly altered to allow a higher bow. A big change in electronic layout was that the DKM entered an agreement with the main electronic equipment manufacturers in such a way as to "Bismarck" serve as testbed for the different types of radar developed in those times. The DKM beared the cost of the optical rangefinders and the radar equipment providers offered the antennae and colateral equipment at a 50% discount. This way both sides intended to use several types of radar in the harsh deep water conditions, summer and winter, and give each provider the respective findings.

This way, on the top foremast a FuMO 26 was installed on a 8m rangefinder, with a FuMB-"Bali" IFF on top. This radar antenna had a range of 25km and an astonishing accuracy of 0.25º both in height as in lateral deviation (source: "Radar Equipment of Germany"). On top of the front shielded and reinforced command compartment a FuMO-213 "Würzburg D" was mounted on top of a 5m rangefinder with a new 4m wide mesh made dish for significantly better signal receiver. This unit served as direct fire control for both the forward towers. At the rear fire control station, a newly developed FuMO 63 "Hohentwiel-K" was mounted on a 8m rangefinder together with the usual FuMB-3 "Bali" IFF unit. This unit was Telefunken's answer to Lorenz units developed at least six months earlier. It served as fire director of the the two rear artillery towers and had roughly the same precision of the FuMO 26 but at a greater range of 35km. On both sides of the superstructure two FuMO 213 "Würzburg-D" were mounted on 3 meter 3D stabilized mountings serving as fire directors for the 15cm artillery on the respective side.

DKM "Bismarck" battleship was finally ready to be delivered on August 1940. It served during one year as admiral ship of the fleet the "Baltic Alliance" sent to the Black Sea, to fight the soviets on the southern flank and in October 1941 she was the admiral ship of a fleet Germany sent to the USA to show the gratitude of the "Baltic Alliance" towards the Americans by supporting it in its fight against the Soviet Union. The fleet visited Baltimore, San Diego, San Francisco and in the first days of December, 1941 headed west to Hawaii.


Last edited by Cargil48 on August 23rd, 2020, 5:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 23rd, 2020, 4:51 am
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Awesome!

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Rhade
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 23rd, 2020, 7:37 am
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I did expect rather white ensign of Kaiserliche Marine.

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 23rd, 2020, 11:12 am
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Rhade wrote: *
I did expect rather white ensign of Kaiserliche Marine.
You hit the nail on one of my basic doubts regarding the era I'm putting my AU in... and this reflects obviously on the flags... First, the regime which was overthrown by the victorious high ranking officers was named "Third Reich". This is wrong, as we all know, because there was no Reich at all... it was the purest dictatorship we can imagine an with an ex-corporal at the helm... Now, assuming my timeline could be considered correct, how to name the new German state resulting from the overthrowing of the nazis? And which flags to use? Not only on the marine, in general. Here in this design for Bismark on the second mast is the flag I prefer for the Kriegsmarine. Red with a white and black bordered cross with the eagle in the middle. But... which national flag should I use? The one of the Weimarer Republik which was the state form before the nazis took over? Would be more appropriate, maybe... What do you think?


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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 23rd, 2020, 11:53 am
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I have a few comments on the drawing. Your aircraft catapult is still visible but now blocked by the aft part of the funnel. At the same time, there is a black line between that aft part of the funnel and the rest of the funnel, suggesting that funnel extension is very thin. I doubt that is correct. In addition, all the boats are raised. I suspect this is because at least some of those boats were put on top of the aircraft hangar, of which you have blocked the catapult so I suspect that is now surplus, so the boats can go in a more favourable position and possibly a smaller crane can be fitted as well.
Btw, I suspect you have put 3 bladed propellers on it, not 4 bladed as is noted in the text.

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Rhade
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 23rd, 2020, 3:25 pm
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Cargil48 wrote: *
What do you think?
When story of tiny mustache Austrian and his crooks end around 1935, Reichsmarine would not transform in Kriegsmarine so it would use Weimarer ensign or just go back to Kaiserliche white ensign. The name Reich still apply as Germany had been a federation of lands, term Third Reich would not exist but Deutsches Reich if it would reinstate monarchy or Deutsche Republik if stay in republican model still would fit.

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 23rd, 2020, 6:03 pm
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acelanceloet wrote: *
I have a few comments on the drawing. Your aircraft catapult is still visible but now blocked by the aft part of the funnel. At the same time, there is a black line between that aft part of the funnel and the rest of the funnel, suggesting that funnel extension is very thin. I doubt that is correct. In addition, all the boats are raised. I suspect this is because at least some of those boats were put on top of the aircraft hangar, of which you have blocked the catapult so I suspect that is now surplus, so the boats can go in a more favourable position and possibly a smaller crane can be fitted as well.
The catapult was indeed planned at first (in my AU DKM timeline...) but dropped when the new guidelines for the German DKM were implemented which stated that each fleet would have one aircraft carrier in its line-up. This obviously made battleship or heavy cruisers not needing anymore to carry scout planes aboard. In case of the "Bismarck" the big crane was already installed and the lifeboats installed higher than needed so it was decided to place another pair of 10,5cm AA guns on each side, turned backwards, to complement the two mounts placed forward. Itr was therefore decided to let the boats where they aere in the first place because being higher mounted, they could also be mounted more to the inside, giving the AA guns more operational space. A smaller crane wilol possibly be installed the next time a major overhaul of mthe big ship is needed...

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Btw, I suspect you have put 3 bladed propellers on it, not 4 bladed as is noted in the text.
Correct. I altered the text accordingly because three bladed screws were the norm in those days. They were adapted to the needed thrust by the dimension of their blades, as you know better than me.


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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 23rd, 2020, 6:13 pm
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Cargil48 wrote: *
The catapult was indeed planned at first (in my AU DKM timeline...) but dropped when the new guidelines for the German DKM were implemented which stated that each fleet would have one aircraft carrier in its line-up. This obviously made battleship or heavy cruisers not needing anymore to carry scout planes aboard. In case of the "Bismarck" the big crane was already installed and the lifeboats installed higher than needed so it was decided to place another pair of 10,5cm AA guns on each side, turned backwards, to complement the two mounts placed forward. Itr was therefore decided to let the boats where they aere in the first place because being higher mounted, they could also be mounted more to the inside, giving the AA guns more operational space. A smaller crane wilol possibly be installed the next time a major overhaul of mthe big ship is needed...
This makes little sense. The catapult and crane and hangar would already be installed but the lengthening and new machinery was not? You mentioned this was decided at the start of construction (as it should be)

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