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eswube
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: October 13th, 2016, 9:14 pm
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Fantastic series!


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Hood
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: October 14th, 2016, 7:49 am
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I knew the dreadnought era was going to be something special and you've delivered once again.
I love the idea of the modified Rio de Janeiro, that would have been an awesome beast.
The Tiger variant looks good too.

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Tempest
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: October 14th, 2016, 5:43 pm
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Absolutely splendid Gd. I do prefer the German designs because I think they will more powerful, however the colour scheme on agincourt camouflage scheme is awesome.

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Garlicdesign
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: December 15th, 2016, 8:29 pm
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Hello again!

4. Back to square one: The Wars of 1911 through 1913
By 1911, the Young Turk government was in serious financial trouble, not the last because of the ongoing fleet building extravagancies. Internal unrest in the Ottoman Balkan provinces added to a perceived helplessness of the Empire against foreign aggression, which the Italian government decided to act upon in Fall 1911. Covered by a secret treaty with the French dating back to 1902 which ruled out French intervention in case of an Italian attempt to seize Ottoman territory, the Italians struck in late September and attacked the insufficiently defended Ottoman Libya, complete with its oil deposits which were just beginning to be exploited by a German company. British protest, which was expected to be an uproar, was only symbolic; the Italian strike against Turkey at a time of steadily increasing German influence there was effectively the death knell of the Triple Alliance, and for this immense political gain, an exception was allowed from the basic principle of British policy that European nations without oil reserves must by all means be prevented from acquiring any. By 1911, the Italian Navy had twelve battleships, ten armoured cruisers and sundry smaller vessels; although no Italian ship was an individual match for the splendid Ottoman pre-dreadnoughts Orhan Gazi and Yildirim Sultan Bayezid, the 4 to 1 numerical superiority of the attacking force was enough to deter the Ottoman navy from attempting to engage the Italians. Only two naval engagements took place; the Italians first destroyed a coast guard force of seven Ottoman Gunboats in the Red Sea and then the old, unmodernized ironclad Avnillah serving as guardship in Beirut. The main Ottoman fleet never left the Dardanelles during the war with Italy. Despite some minor successes by irregular Muslim forces in Libya, the war against Italy was a crushing, humiliating defeat. The expensive fleet had not only achieved nothing; worse, it had not even tried, and many senior officers were sacked, causing disorganization and a further drop in morale. It was only a few months later that the Balkan League, having seen how feeble the Empire had defended itself against the Italians, launched the first Balkan war in order to drive the Ottoman Empire from the European continent. But although the land offensive against Ottoman forces again was crushingly successful, the naval strength of both sides - consisting exclusively of the Greek fleet on the Balkan League's side - was evenly matched, with a slight numerical edge to the Ottomans. Italy made peace with the Turks ten days after the First Balkan war had begun, and this time, the Turkish government was determined to use its fleet, which was available in its entirety at Constantinople, to the fullest extent of its capabilities.

4.1.
The Royal Hellenic Navy at that time was numerically smaller than the Ottoman Navy, but its ships were generally more modern and in a better state of repair. They also were superior in training, morale, leadership and doctrine.

4.1.1.
The core of the Royal Hellenic Navy were the battleships Navarinon and Mykale, which had been purchased in the USA in 1908. They had been built on speculation, hoping for a sale to Brazil, which had failed to materialize when the Brazilians opted for dreadnoughts instead; after a brief time in USN commission as USS Mississippi and USS Idaho - the USN was not thrilled about their low speed and poor seakeeping - the RHN had stepped in. Both units fought in the Balkan war in an unaltered state.
[ img ]

4.1.2.
The Greek battle line was complemented with three old coast defence ironclads: Hydra, Psara and Spetsai. All three had been extensively modernized in France between 1903 and 1907, with new guns purchased in Britain and installed in France. Their long, slim, cruiser-like hulls were totally gutted and their former armament of three short-barreled 275mm guns (two in an open barbette forward, one in a thinly armored turret aft - was replaced with two 234mm L/37 Armstrong guns in thickly armoured single turrets forward and aft, giving them the same punch as the Ottoman Messoudieh-class on barely half the displacement. Four 152mm guns in casemates amidships were provided as secondary battery, and the old 300mm NS belt was replaced by 229mm KC with much superior protective value. The engines were also replaced, but only to make them more compact and economical; speed remained at 17 knots, which made them homogenous with the larger Navarinon and Mykale.
[ img ]

4.1.3.
The place of pride in the Greek line belonged to the armoured cruiser Georgios Averof, flagship of the scouting squadron; it is the same as in OTL.
[ img ]

4.1.4.
The newest ships of the RHN were two British-built scout cruisers delivered in 1911. They were named Bouboulina and Manto Mavrogenous for two heroines of the Greek war of Independence and based on HMS Boadicea, but with a much stronger armament of two 152mm and six 102mm guns, plus two 457mm torpedo tubes. They could also be told from their British half-sisters by their two masts of near equal height. With their speed of 25 knots, they could outrun the somewhat stronger armed Ottoman scout cruisers, which were only good for 22 knots.
[ img ]

4.1.5.
The Hellenic destroyer force consisted of twelve units. The eight oldest ones were VTE-engined 30-knotters of 350 tons, four built in Germany (Aspis, Doxa, Niki and Velos) and four in Great Britain (Lonchi, Nafkratoussa, Sphendoni and Thyella); they are the same as in OTL. They were assigned to the main battle line.
[ img ]
[ img ]

4.1.6.
Four large turbine destroyers named Aetos, Ierax, Leon and Panthir were attached to the scouting squadron; they also are the same as in OTL.
[ img ]

4.1.7.
Two small, very fast German-built destroyers of the 1911 type - named Keravnos and Nea Genea - were also available, same as in OTL.
[ img ]

4.1.8.
Unlike the Ottomans, the RHN already had two submarines - named Delphin and Xiphias and built in France - in commission. They are the same as in OTL. They were still new when the Balkan wars started, and their crews were not fully worked up, so they achieved nothing.
[ img ]

4.2.
In a first encounter in December 1912 (Battle of Helli), the Ottomans tried to clear the way for a troop convoy to Thessaloniki. They fielded six battleships (Orhan Gazi, Yildirim Sultan Bayezid, Abdul Aziz, Messoudieh, Selimieh and Mahmoudieh), the armoured cruiser Barbaros Hayrettin, three light cruisers (Mecidieh, Hamidieh, and Heibet Numa; Drama had run aground in the Golden Horn) plus twelve modern destroyers. Two old battleships, four torpedo gunboats and sixteen torpedo boats were kept back to defend the Dardanelles; the battleship Abdul Kadir was still working up after her modernization and was not yet deemed combat-ready. The Greeks mustered their entire fleet as well: Five battleships (Navarinon, Mykale, Hydra, Spetsai and Psara), the armoured cruiser Georgios Averoff, the brand new scout cruisers Bouboulina and Manto Mavrogenous, and twelve destroyers; only two destroyers were held back, both still working up. Both fleets met on a cloudy, windy day in a choppy sea, unusual for Aegean conditions even in winter; visibility was relatively good however. All these factors compounded to give the better trained Greek gunners a distinct edge. Neither fleet had a speed advantage - both could move at 17 knots - so neither managed to gain an advantageous tactical position. The Greek screening group chased away its Turkish opposite, but was hit by a determined torpedo attack by Ottoman destroyers, while both battlefleets pounded each other. At the end of the three-hour engagement, the Ottomans lost the battleship Abdul Aziz, the cruiser Heibet Numah and the modern destroyer Nemune i-Hamieh; the Greeks only lost the old destroyer Lonchi. The big Ottoman battleships were both damaged, as was the cruiser Barbaros Hayrettin; on the Greek side, the battleship Navarinon suffered medium damage and the cruiser Averoff was torpedoed, although less seriously than initially believed. Despite their losses, the Ottomans retreated in good order and claimed to have sunk the Averoff, but reinforcing Thessaloniki by sea was out of the question anyway. Both sides frantically repaired their ships: the Greeks efficiently, the Ottomans rather less so. Less than a month after the battle of Helli, both fleets met again in the Battle of Lemnos in January 1913, the second and last Ottoman attempt to gain freedom of action in the northern Aegean. All Greek ships that had fought at Helli were back in action, particularly the Averoff which the Turks were firmly convinced to have sunk. The Turks failed to repair the heavily damaged Barbaros Hayreddin in time, and Yildirim Sultan Bayezid had to go to battle minus her forward 305mm turret; none of the German-built destroyers were available due to unrepaired battle damage. To make up their numbers, they committed the old battleships Abdul Kadir, Nusretieh and Ibrahimieh, and their four torpedo gunboats and sixteen torpedo boats. Despite such numbers, this time the Greeks managed to out-maneuver the Turks. The initial Turkish torpedo attack failed abjectly, and three of the old torpedo boats were sunk without any hits scored; one of the covering torpedo gunboats (Recber-i Tewfik) was also lost. The entire Turkish screening force was about to be annihilated, and the Ottoman commander decided to charge the Greek cruisers with his biggest battleships, which could make 20 knots. They managed to chase away the Greek cruisers, but before the Ottoman squadron could re-join, the collection of six old ironclads came in range of Navarinon and Mykale, who sank Mahmoudieh, Ibrahimieh and Nusretieh within half an hour. Abdul Kadir was badly damaged and Selimieh lightly; only Messoudieh escaped unharmed. The remaining Ottoman ships fled in disarray, and Yildirim Sultan Bayezid and Orhan Gazi could do little more than cover their retreat. The Greeks followed them leisurely, but did not force the issue again; they knew Ottoman morale was broken and the enemy fleet would not sail again during the war.

4.3.
In the panicky atmosphere after the defeats of Helli and Lemnos, a public subscription was started to pay for the immediate acquisition of another battleship; this effort however never bore fruit. The two largest pre-dreadnoughts were modernized from mid-1913 through mid-1914.

4.3.1. Orhan Gazi class battleships
These two German-built pre-dreadnoughts were the only Ottoman ships that gave a good account of themselves during the first Balkan war. Their lattice masts however had proved prone to vibration and were replaced with pole masts in 1913/4. They also received gyrocompasses and rangefinders. During 1915, all but four of the 88mm guns were landed and improved w/t equipment was installed; by 1916, they looked like this:
[ img ]

4.3.2. Sultan Osman-i Evvel class battleship
Immediately after the Balkan Wars, the Ottomans frantically sought to acquire additional warships. Brazil was approached again and offered an outrageous sum to buy the nearly complete Rio de Janeiro, but the Brazilians were more determined than ever to build up their own strength and rejected. The Ottomans had already collected a sizeable sum by public subscription to pay for an additional dreadnought, and to everyone's surprise, they chose a submission by Thiaria's Riordan yard (which had never built a capital ship before) over British and German offers; it was not revealed until 1923 that bribery had played a part in the decision-making process. The Ottoman ship, to be named Sultan Osman-i Evvel, was laid down in July 1913. She was never delivered to the Ottoman Navy, but seized in April 1916 for Service with the Thiarian Navy as LT Crionna. She was the first Thiarian ship with Parsons turbines, and carried nine Schneider type 340/45 guns manufactured under French license and placed in Thiarian-designed turrets. The Ottoman specifications did not contain much in the way of fire-control or antiair guns, but a ram and a very heavy secondary armament of 20 152mm guns. The ship was considered well protected and powerfully armed, but inferior to other Thiarian battleships in terms of range, speed and seakeeping. She still would have made a fine fighting ship for the Mediterranean where range and seakeeping were of secondary value. As designed, she would have looked like this:
[ img ]

In Thiarian service, she lasted for 23 years, fought in both world wars and was eventually sunk by the Royal Navy in 1940. See the Thiaria thread for details.

Greetings
GD


Last edited by Garlicdesign on December 17th, 2016, 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: December 15th, 2016, 8:49 pm
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As usual, splendid background history and drawings. But I am not very fond of the new Hydra Battleship. Hellas would buy something new or second hand much better than throwing money to that conversion. I do like both the Bouboulina Class cruiser and the Navarino Class Battleship. Also, at last Delfin Class submarines in Shipbucket! However, I am not sure were they carried torpedoes.


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RegiaMarina1939
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: December 15th, 2016, 11:14 pm
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Excellent work GD! I love Greek ships, as the history of the Greek navy is tied so closely to that of the Italian navy! Regarding your comment, Odysseus, the Hydra class vessels were in fact extensively modernized in France in real life. This depiction of them is in fact rather accurate, as the Greek fleet had them modernized to keep pace with the rest of the worlds battleships.

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Hood
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: December 16th, 2016, 8:50 am
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As usual, very nice additions and well-handled work based on real-world ships.

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Gollevainen
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: December 16th, 2016, 9:10 am
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great addittions. Your universe is simply unparraled among here

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RegiaMarina1939
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: December 16th, 2016, 2:58 pm
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I demand Italian ships! Immediately! Haha just kidding. Whenever you're ready.

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pegasus206
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: December 16th, 2016, 3:05 pm
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Must agree Great work again GD both on the ships as on the background story.

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