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pegasus206
Post subject: Re: Mister McKinley's Navy.Posted: February 3rd, 2016, 11:40 am
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Sorry Tobius had to change your map , like Cascadia say your missing the German colonies on yours , this is how it has to look like.

[ img ]

And abouth your Infuence in the indian ocean and in Africa in 1884/1885 in Berlin there was the Congo Conference , this regulated European colonization and trade in Africa. The United states took part in this Conference and could have taken a part of Africa for them self. Maby they could have Kenya As that would fit great in modrern time and that way Obama would be a real America.

For the rest i must say realy great ships and looking forward to the rest.

Greatings Aart.

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Tobius
Post subject: Re: Mister McKinley's Navy.Posted: February 3rd, 2016, 2:46 pm
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Your map is in error. \

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Africa_1885_map.png

The era start current is 1885, not 1914. The Germans are barely on the coasts and have not worked inland yet.

The Carolines, Gilberts and Marshalls are still Spanish, and the Bismarks are fiercely disputed with the British and the Dutch.

The US presence in Africa was LIBERIA. An 'independent' nation state. Sort of like British Egypt.

Confernce on the Congo.
Quote:
Principle of Effective Occupation

The principle of effective occupation stated that powers could acquire rights over colonial lands only if they possessed them or had "effective occupation": in other words, if they had treaties with local leaders, if they flew their flag there, and if they established an administration in the territory to govern it with a police force to keep order. The colonial power could also make use of the colony economically. This principle became important not only as a basis for the European powers to acquire territorial sovereignty in Africa, but also for determining the limits of their respective overseas possessions, as effective occupation served in some instances as a criterion for settling disputes over the boundaries between colonies. But, as the Berlin Act was limited in its scope to the lands that fronted on the African coast, European powers in numerous instances later claimed rights over lands in the interior without demonstrating the requirement of effective occupation, as articulated in Article 35 of the Final Act.

At the Berlin Conference of 1885, the scope of the Principle of Effective Occupation was heavily contested between Germany and France. The Germans, who were new to the continent of Africa, believed that as far as the extension of power in Africa was concerned, no colonial power should have any legal right to a territory, unless the state exercised strong and effective political control. Since Germany was a latecomer to the continent and was unlikely to gain any possessions, it had an interest in embarrassing the other European powers on the continent and forcing them to give up their possessions if they could not muster a strong political presence. On the other side, the United Kingdom (UK) had large territorial "possessions" on the continent and wanted to keep them while minimising its responsibilities and administrative costs. In the end, the British view prevailed.

The disinclination to rule what the Europeans had "conquered" is apparent throughout the protocols of the Berlin Conference, but especially in "The Principle of Effective Occupation." The powers finally agreed that this could be established by a European power establishing some kind of base on the coast, from which it was free to expand into the interior. The Europeans did not believe that the rules of occupation demanded European hegemony on the ground. The Belgians originally wanted to include that "effective occupation" required provisions that "cause peace to be administered", but other powers had that amendment struck out of the final document.

This principle, along with others that were written at the Conference allowed the Europeans to "conquer" Africa while doing as little as possible to administer or control it. The Principle of Effective Occupation did not apply so much to the hinterlands of Africa at the time of the conference. This gave rise to "hinterland theory," which basically gave any colonial power with coastal territory the right to claim political influence over an indefinite amount of inland territory. Since Africa was irregularly shaped, this theory caused problems and was later rejected
From the American point of view at the time, the African agreement reached in Berlin was as worthless as the paper it was written upon.

For in fact, when the Americans set about to establish their own colonial administration, they actually meant hegemony over the territories they ruled. Hence the Hawaiian annexation, the Philippine War, the Cuba occupation, Puerto Rico flat out conquered and the Canal Zone heavily occupied.

As for Germany's Pacific empire.

[ img ]

The area marked in yellow was purchased from Spain. for about 18 MRM in 1899.

What makes this all interesting is that the Germans were actually after the Philippines itself and hoped during the Spanish American War to either by negotiation, bluff or guile to convince the Spanish to turn the colony over or mayhaps if the Americans sought to 'liberate' the Philippines as they had Cuba, the Germans could swoop in and either make a deal with Aguinaldo and take over with him as puppet, or if the United States stayed put, "share the hegemony". That is Kaiser Wilhelm II sought to cut a deal with the McKinley Administration to split the archipelago in two. This chicanery went so far as an offer to swap a German coaling station cable base and anchorage in the Bismarks for Mindanao!

USN archives.

This attempt backfired on the Germans. Hitherto, the German American relations in the Pacific had been somewhat formal but cordial despite the fiasco at Samoa. Vice-Admiral von Diedrichs the German commanding the German East Asia fleet was discovered interfering with US operations (American viewpoint, although he claimed he was on a survey and assessment of the situation mission. In the middle of a shooting war?). He had originally trained as a midshipman on American warships when Prussia set about organizing her first naval academy and imported American naval officers to set it up. Von Diederichs took his midshipman's cruise during an American expedition to China and Korea and thus was uniquely favored and placed later in his career by experience to take command of the German East Asia station.

None of the stuff that went wrong at Manila Nay, which was his fault, should have happened at all. Admiral von Diederichs knew first hand that American naval customs and warfare was not conformable to "European" rules since the United States had not been a party to them and did not follow them.

He also was aware that George Dewey had a hair trigger temper for his other European (French) compeers had warned him. But I really don't blame von Diederichs. The man had just successfully bluffed the Chinese Qing government into yielding the Tsing Tsao (Dalian) anchorage under a similar set of Kaiser Wilhelm II orders. He might have thought the chaos in Manila and on Luzon allowed him the same gunboat diplomacy leverage to effect some kind of concessions on the harassed Americans or the Filipinos, both of whom he tried to game. I don't think Aguinaldo trusted Diederichs or the other Germans farther than he could see him or them, and as for Dewey, well being lectured by the flag secretary representative officer sent to him by an upstart foreign navy admiral was not going to sit well with an American admiral, especially a very tired short of sleep angry one in the middle of a shooting war who had just blasted one enemy fleet into ruin for just sitting there.

With Otto Bismark gone and tyros running the German foreign ministry the Kaiser was more or less doing as he wished in the field of foreign relations and so far his colonial ad hockery with his confused ill considered and often out of touch with reality personally issued orders to various German ambassadors, consuls and military officers had produced some decent results for Germany, even if it had ruffled French, Italian and British feathers hitherto.

But this was the United States, now, not some Chinese potentate or some rival European nation's colonial administration manned by cautious bureaucrats who were afraid of mistakes and consequences if they overreacted. Bluff and bargains made under duress of threat would not work with the U.S..

The upshot was that Dewey called in a USN marker from his sudden newfound British buddy Admiral Chichester, (courted at Hong Kong before Dewey sailed for Manila)also at Manila Bay with his fleet and Diederichs found himself staring into the first Anglo-American showdown. Bluff was met with a real threat and from that day forward, Germany was solidly slotted into the enemies column as far as the USN was concerned. Hard feelings cemented in place and were transmitted to Washington. One of the recipients of Dewey's accounts was Theodore Roosevelt. Not a good enemy to create was Theodore Roosevelt.

Still, it was a minor bone headed mistake Berlin made, but it would be American remembered and amplified later when the Zimmerman telegram was handed over (America's new friends the British supplied the contents.) after the Lusitania Incident. That telegram did for Germany what that less than competent Spanish ambassador Enrique Dupuy de Lome's letter which called McKinley a political hack did for Spain right after the Maine blew up.

And all that started because von Diederichs forgot the first rule of neutrals in a live fire war zone. STAY NEUTRAL and be cautious.


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seeker36340
Post subject: Re: Mister McKinley's Navy.Posted: February 3rd, 2016, 3:17 pm
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Shiloh, Chattanooga, Knoxville, Savannah, Fort Fisher, Fort Donelson, Island #10, even Petersburg and Vicksburg were NAVAL victories.

I think you're mixing up Knoxville and Nashville, but otherwise a most interesting analysis


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Tobius
Post subject: Re: Mister McKinley's Navy.Posted: February 3rd, 2016, 3:25 pm
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Burnside beat Longstreet at Knoxville. The Tennessee River was Burnside's supply line and the navy anchored him. But you are correct that Nashville was also a naval victory. That case it was the Cumberland and Thomas beat Hood.


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Tobius
Post subject: Re: Mister McKinley's Navy.Posted: February 3rd, 2016, 4:08 pm
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[ img ]

First of the fleet trains.


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pegasus206
Post subject: Re: Mister McKinley's Navy.Posted: February 3rd, 2016, 4:37 pm
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Great looking ship Tobius :D :D :D :D

By the way yes my map would be more 1914. And this on is the right one . https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 85_map.png

but the one you showed would be more 1918 if you take a good look at it.

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Aart.

Projects:

The Kingdom of Rochfort in FD


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Tobius
Post subject: Re: Mister McKinley's Navy.Posted: February 3rd, 2016, 9:21 pm
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Thank you for the compliment. I sure hope my sail powered collier turns out as well!
pegasus206 wrote:
Great looking ship Tobius :D :D :D :D

By the way yes my map would be more 1914. And this on is the right one . https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 85_map.png

but the one you showed would be more 1918 if you take a good look at it.
1918? I have to agree. I probably have to work more on it to make it fit right.
Quote:
I grabbed a map out of image storage. I'll fix it.


And I will cheerfully accept any further historic corrections that yield more accuracy for the 1885 start point.


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Tobius
Post subject: Re: Mister McKinley's Navy.Posted: February 4th, 2016, 3:07 am
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Figured I would fill in some background information on the technology you will see.

Around the middle 1880s the French developed poudre blanc, or what is a class of stable nitrocellulose propellants that we today (at least in America) call smokeless powders. The other great powers soon followed suit, each trying to produce a variant that offered reduced particulate discharge and soot while providing longer burn times for greater shove.

You can see the change this brought about in firearms from everything that threw projectiles from rifles to pistols to artillery pieces. The calibers lengthened. A typical Krupp steel rifle of 12 calibers soon became 40 calibers in length.

This revolution happened in Europe, but about the time the Americans were plating their first protected cruisers with Harvey armor plate, they also were making their first fretted and hooped breech loading steel guns. They did not use wire reinforcement like the British and French did. The Americans pioneered wrapping barrels with reinforcement bands that were heated and allowed to shrink on the main tube during their civil war. Some of the Phoenix Foundry guns made for the Union were made this way, first out of iron, and then out of steel.

The problem with the breech loading system was also one the Americans were familiar with. The Confederates had purchased some British breech loaders which blew up on them and which they abandoned and the Federals captured. This led to interesting American experiments which resulted in breech loading artillery for their coastal defense sites. (railroad guns). These same guns would find their way aboard ships allowing a commonality of ammunition and propellants for the Army and the Navy that will factor in war.

In this AU, just as Armstrong, Vickers, Skoda, Schneider, Ansaldo, and Krupp will factor in European artillery, so Driggs Seabury and Driggs Schroeder and Bethlehelm Steel will factor in American gun foundry work.

Some of the American developments to watch for are Hiram Maxim's brother, Henry who will develop a nitrocellulose gunpowder that was identified as RBY and which like US civil war propellants was made in sticks. This is a hot burning powder that is murder on the liners of rifles and artillery pieces as it burns and pits the inner liners forcing tube re-linings more often than French or German guns required. A rich navy can afford such a luxury.

The US Navy will not, like many European navies did, use bagged charges, preferring cased charges and case seals in the breech. It will become more than a convenience. It will be a safety issue as the storage of bagged charges in this AU leads to the explosion and loss of the USS Chicago, and a similar type disaster blows up Battery Moultrie for the US Army coast artillery.

Similar issues lead to the decision to adopt the Krupp wedge block, and striker ignition instead of the Fletcher four step interrupted screw block with electric priming.

Early on the Americans will adopt electric driven mechanical hoists, traverse and elevation machinery. True to real history, they will pioneer the use of a signal device called the photo-phone and they will mount unusually large and powerful searchlights on their warships.

They will develop the Exide battery from the ideas and patents of Mr. Clement Payen. This is in the real history but will be pushed harder as the flywheel torpedo fails and the USN needs an alternative to the Whitehead and the Schwarzkopf. The Exide lead acid battery will feature prominently in early US submarines and the Howell electric torpedoes that will share ship sinking duties with the licensed Schwarzkopf automobile torpedo. .

From these background notes of slight historic tweaks, it may come to pass that Mister Hotchkiss may not follow Mister Hiram Maxim to Europe. This will have significant negative effects for the French who will be stuck with their Puteaux and St. Etienne machine guns.

Thus Mister Stephen Vincent Benet, United States Navy, will not be going overseas to peddle his engineering wares to France either. It's bad enough the Europeans got hold of the Maxim, they don't need the Model 1897 Benet {Hotchkiss] as well, do they?

I could mention a few other surprises in store like Charles Manley and a certain madman od the Smithsonian Institution, but I want to leave those ideas for later.


Last edited by Tobius on February 7th, 2016, 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tobius
Post subject: Re: Mister McKinley's Navy.Posted: February 5th, 2016, 7:43 pm
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[ img ]

and

[ img ]

More fill in ships for Mister McKinley's Navy


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Mister McKinley's Navy.Posted: February 5th, 2016, 8:31 pm
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Interesting drawings.

That Wyoming BB is a big ship for its time. 495x?, 6x12"? then 6 or 12 turreted secondaries. It is very well armed for its time.

Like the AU vessels I drew with 6 guns for pre-dreads (which you commented on), yours (1896) are even earlier than mine (1898). We have both used the German Brandenburg idea and made the 'middle' guns the same calibre as the others. I would class your ship as a Semi-dreadnought, the way it is armed. The stats I would be interested in are the armour and propulsion/speed.

The more I look at the Wyoming the more I like it as a big solid ship with a blend of French and other countries superstructure and armament.


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