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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Republic of Algarve.Posted: September 28th, 2016, 2:21 am
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Gorgon Class Cruisers

The Gorgon class originated from a specification for cruisers to be better than those of the German light cruisers placed on overseas postings, in the Far East and Pacific. To work in all of the big oceans and to be able to catch and overwhelm the German cruisers completing during 1914, required a ship of about 6,500 tons, approx, 500 feet, and armed with 7-8 6” guns. The latest Commonwealth cruisers, the Birmingham class ships, were smaller than these specifications and still had mainly broadside guns which affected the overall broadside. Putting all of the 6” guns on the centreline almost doubled the broadside compared to the older cruisers. The only way the Algarvian designers could achieve this was to put six of the 6” in three twin turrets on the centreline (one forward, and two aft), complimented with one single mounting forward, in a superfiring position. This was done as to mount a second twin turret forward would have required an even longer and larger cruiser.

Speed and range were comparable to the cruisers that were completing in 1916 at the same time as the Gorgons. The two very tall funnels certainly dated the ships design as forced draught was still a very useful tool for achieving speed.

Eventually six ships were laid down in pairs, 1914, 1915, 1917, with the last pair being completed in 1919. The first two ships of the class, Gorgon and Medusa, were taken in hand in 1939 to be converted to AA cruisers, these rebuilds completing in 1941. The other four were also to be converted, two in 1940-42, and the last two 1941-43. These were cancelled in 1939 on the outbreak of war and the four ships fought WW2 in their original layouts with additions that could be fitted. 1942-43 to assist with stability the aircraft handling facilities, torpedoes and other ancillary equipment (large ship boats etc) were removed while radar and other electronics were added.

[ img ]

As completed 1917:
Displacement: 6,250 tons normal, 7,950 tons full load.
Dimensions: 505 x 53 x 19 feet
Machinery: 2 shaft, steam turbines (oil fired), 60,000shp
Speed: 31 knots
Endurance: 8,000 miles at 15 knots.
Armour: 3” belt, 1” deck, 3/2/2” turrets
Armament:
7 x 6” (3x2, 1x1)
4 x 4” AA (4x1)
4 x mg’s AA (4x1)
6 x 21” TT (2x3)
Crew: 550

[ img ]

As refitted to 1931:
Displacement: 6,250 tons normal, 7,950 tons full load.
Dimensions: 505 x 53 x 19 feet
Machinery: 2 shaft, steam turbines (oil fired), 60,000shp
Speed: 31 knots
Endurance: 8,000 miles at 15 knots.
Armour: 3” belt, 1” deck, 3/2/2” turrets
Armament:
7 x 6” (3x2, 1x1)
4 x 4” AA (4x1)
4 x mg’s AA (4x1)
6 x 21” TT (2x3)
Aircraft: 1
Crew: 560

[ img ]

As rebuilt as AA cruisers 1939-41
Displacement: 6,450 tons normal, 8,250 tons full load.
Dimensions: 505 x 53 x 19 feet
Machinery: 2 shaft, steam turbines (oil fired), 60,000shp
Speed: 30 knots
Endurance: 8,000 miles at 15 knots.
Armour: 3” belt, 1” deck,
Armament:
8 x 4.5 (4x2)
28 x 40mm (14x2)
Crew: 560

[ img ]

As refitted to 1943:
Displacement: 6,300 tons normal, 8,050 tons full load.
Dimensions: 505 x 53 x 19 feet
Machinery: 2 shaft, steam turbines (oil fired), 60,000shp
Speed: 30 knots
Endurance: 8,000 miles at 15 knots.
Armour: 3” belt, 1” deck, 3/2/2” turrets
Armament:
6 x 6” (3x2)
6 x 4” AA (1x2, 4x1)
18 x 40mm (9x2)
Crew: 575


ARS Gorgon (1917)
ARS Medusa (1917)
ARS Sythena (1918)
ARS Euryalus (1918)
ARS Charybdis (1919)
ARS Cyclops (1919)


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Republic of Algarve.Posted: September 30th, 2016, 9:31 am
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Added 1943 drawing to Gorgon Class 6" cruisers above.

Lots of changes made to reduce topweight because of the additions made during the first part of the war. Funnel heights reduced, single 6" forward replaced with twin 4", Surface and Air search and targeting radar added, twin 40mm replaced single AA machine guns (13mm), torpedoes and aircraft handling equipment removed. ships boats mounted lower, crane replaced with smaller unit, boats removed replaced with large and medium sized liferafts, mast heights reduced.


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Republic of Algarve.Posted: October 10th, 2016, 8:32 pm
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Captain Diego Dias Class Aircraft Carrier.

First of the ‘Mega’ carriers, the Dias class carriers were huge. At just over 1200 feet and with a hull beam of 138 feet, there were only half a dozen places in the world they could dock to do hull work and two of those were in enemy hands (St Nazaire and Kure Naval Yard (Yamato dock)). This limited the number of places in the world that the Dias class could operate during the end of WW2. The ships weighed in at over 80,000 tons when at full load and were unable to use the floating docks. These ships were just too big.

Three of this class were laid down 1n 1938 (Captain Diego Dias), 1939 (Admiral James T Kirk), 1940 (Admiral Richie McCaw) which replaced the ship of the same name lost during the war. The Dias was completed in October 1943, the Kirk in November 1945, and the McCaw in September 1946. The Kirk and McCaw were both adversely affected by the steel shortage of 1940 and by being put on lesser priorities from 1940-43.

The Dias finished its work-up period and its escorts joined it and the new fleet headed for the Pacific. With a dozen squadrons aboard, one of the biggest problems found was being able to brief a full strike. It was found during the work-up period that the best way was to use two waves of aircraft. One reason was the time to assemble a full 144 aircraft strike took too long. The aircraft that took off first used half their fuel waiting for the strike to assemble and thus halved the range that the aircraft could operate in.

Even with a country the size of Algarve, several ships had to be laid up to produce enough crew to man the Dias. Over 4000 crew were required to man the ship, fly and service the aircraft. It had taken almost as long to train crew and build aircraft for the ship as it took to build it.

[ img ]

Displacement: 74,000 tons standard, 88,400 tons full load
Dimensions: 1208 x 138 x 35 feet
Machinery: 4 shaft, geared turbines, 220,000shp
Speed: 30 knots
Endurance: 14,000 miles at 15 knots
Armour: 6” belt and anti-torpedo hull, 1.5” flight deck, 5.5” main deck.
Armament:
20 x 4.5” (10x2)
72 x 40mm (18x4)
Aircraft: 156
Crew: 4,250


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Biancini1995
Post subject: Re: Republic of Algarve.Posted: October 10th, 2016, 9:40 pm
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That's one big fat lady :lol:

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Tempest
Post subject: Re: Republic of Algarve.Posted: October 10th, 2016, 9:42 pm
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Hi Krakatoa, just wondering, have you thought about drawing your own AU ships from scratch or from Real life ships that you've drawn? I don't like commenting on drawings that have been modified by someone else anymore because I have no idea how little has been altered.

Saying that, to improve on the hull, maybe change the hull colour to a more realistic red and add shading.

*Edit*

I hope you don't think I was being horrible or bossy, I wasn't trying to. I just thought it would be good to have a go at a real life ship and mod that for your AU

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Last edited by Tempest on October 10th, 2016, 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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citizen lambda
Post subject: Re: Republic of Algarve.Posted: October 10th, 2016, 9:49 pm
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My my, that's an impressive ship you've got there!
I'm not even going to ask if something that big could have floated and remained in one piece with 1930s technology, that's your AU's problem. ;)

Kudos for just completing such a project in the first place. That's a lot of detail and a whole lot of ship to keep looking coherent.
That being said, it looks to me like it could use some harmonization, particularly as regards the shading of the sides and the way the different elements are brought together. For instance, the root of the island sits tight on the hull with a single contour line, while the gun tubs and lift housings seem to stand off a lot more. Also, the darker shade on the rear face of the lift housings looks a lot darker than the corresponding plate on either the gun tubs or the island, while the angle looks similar.
There are a lot of little things like that which could be improved to make the drawing stand out. Like that weird lighter line above the hull seam, or that lighter area below the staircase on the island side, or whatever happens behind the boats, or the absence of shading on the belt.
Not to disparage your drawing in any way, since I wouldn't be able to make half of it, but I feel that these few small things could help make it really great and bring it to the level of some of your earlier drawings I have come across.

Interesting notes on the training and manning requirements, by the way. These topics get forgotten all too easily; I'll try to take note for future use.

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apdsmith
Post subject: Re: Republic of Algarve.Posted: October 11th, 2016, 11:26 am
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Hi Krakatoa,

A quick question ... wouldn't Algarve have commissioned a smaller, say, 45-60,000 (Midway-Forrestal-class-sized) carrier before jumping straight to something midway between a Kitty Hawk and a Nimitz precisely to avoid this sort of problem?

That's not to say it isn't a well-executed modification, nor that doing drawings because you want to see how they turn out is a bad thing (you recall the CAAA'44? ;)) - just that the text paints a picture of a recklessly ambitious project that almost couldn't help but end up working poorly - putting in a 60,000 tonne carrier to bridge the gap between your 33,000 tonne wartime carriers and this would seem to be a better bet.

Regards,
Adam

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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: Republic of Algarve.Posted: October 11th, 2016, 7:41 pm
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OK now hold on a bit. I'm starting to find this entire thread just a little unbelievable. The nation you've created is basically 2x the size of Madagascar but somehow has a navy to rival the RN and the USN? And a carrier larger than the Midway class that's supposedly built in 1943?

edit: Having gone back and read through this thread entirely I'm actually kind of taken aback at how unrealistic this AU seems. I could see this country operating a few destroyers and minesweepers and maybe some submarines. Possibly lend-lease gets them a CVE or two. No way you'd have multiple classes of battleships, heavy cruisers, aircraft carriers, etc. Let alone a CV larger than the Midway class!

The condescending text at the beginning of the thread about geographical locations and where aspiring AU artists should "place" their countries and then the notion that AU artists could "graduate" by getting their nations placed on your map is really the icing on the cake.

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Republic of Algarve.Posted: October 12th, 2016, 2:37 am
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Thanks for the comments guys. It may take a bit to answer all your queries.

Tempest - I actually do use some of the drawings I have done and kitbashed them for whichever AU I am adding ships to.

Citizen Lambda - I actually looked at the RMS Queen Elizabeth ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Queen_Elizabeth ) which was over a 1000 feet in length and over 80,000 tons. Laid down in 1936 and completed in 1940. So a large carrier of a similar size completing in 1943 is quite possible. I have been redoing the hull colours on the earlier ships, and I will change this one too when I can get back to it. I will look at the shading at the same time.

apdsmith - I have not completed all of the ships for Algarve in order, there are a series of carriers for 1935 20-25,000 tons, and a further 2 completing 1939/40 at about 30-35,000 tons. I just had an idea for the Dias class carriers and ran with it.

Colosseum. - maybe you had better try reading it all again - slowly. Yes the first paragraph was a note to all the new members who at the time were scattering their nations across the map near the equators. Maybe you should have a look at all of the large building yards and where they are situated. They are all above or below the appropriate Tropic of Cancer/Capricorn. So it is good knowledge that everybody, including you, should take aboard and make note of.

About the size of 'Algarve', yes it is twice the size of Madagascar and moved south so that I can have it discovered later. But the size of the islands is the same as Spain and France together. So if I keep the overall Navy smaller than those two nations I should be in the right ball park. Algarve started being colonised in the 1600's so would have had a similar timeline to the United States on a smaller scale. One thing to remember, the route taken by colony ships, to Algarve, runs down the coast of Europe and Africa and does not cross a large ocean such as the North Atlantic. The other thing is that Algarve is colonised early enough to take advantage of the Industrial revolution from the start.

A navy to rival Britain and others?? What have you been smoking?? My WW1 squadrons had 6-8 ships of BB size UK had more than 30 of BB/BC sized vessels, 4-5 times the size of the Algarve fleet.

You have no knowledge of what the population of Algarve might be and what the resources might be, so how can you make any comment on what the make-up of its Navy might be?

How could Algarve build something like the Dias class? Algarve is not under threat of invasion/bombing so could build whatever sized vessels it liked, and as noted above the size is not that outlandish to those vessels being built. The design was based on the UK Malta class with an extra 250 feet of length.

Maybe you had better have a read of the Thiaria AU. GD's navy is a similar size to mine on a smaller area. If you think Algarve is unbelievable, what would you make of Thiaria?


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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: Republic of Algarve.Posted: October 12th, 2016, 4:40 am
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Your large carrier is absolutely indefensible, I'm sorry. The industrial might of the USA accounted for only TWO of the large Midway class CVBs (and this was at the end of the war, when the nuclear option wasn't known to exist, and the invasion of Japan was thought necessary, adding at least 3 more years onto the full timeline). No way a country like yours, situated where it is, with absolutely zero need to project power the way the USA does, and without the industrial base of the USA, could ever build something like it. I'm sorry but it's just not possible. You've also (as far as I can tell) never provided us any kind of population count, military size/expenditure, GDP, etc for this AU. Maybe I am missing it but unless these islands are sitting atop a literal mountain of gold bricks I just can't see it happening. Same with your battleship battle line. WHY would this nation need such a thing? It isn't countered against any particularly obvious foe (other than the British, whom most of its designs seem to come from) so to me there's just no reason why it would bother building such a large navy. HOW do its politicians justify this to a population (small no doubt) that would see its tax money spent on roads and schools rather than battleships to fight an imaginary enemy that poses no existential threat?

I'm sorry for ragging on you, really. The drawings themselves are top notch. My complaints go for the other AUs just as much as this one BTW. Regretfully I fall into the "patrol boats and destroyers" AU class, where I find the small stuff much more interesting than battleships and aircraft carriers (sadly). ;) :P

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