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Shigure
Post subject: Re: Navy of PLK CommonwealthPosted: August 4th, 2018, 7:59 am
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Very nice!

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eswube
Post subject: Re: Navy of PLK CommonwealthPosted: August 5th, 2018, 10:19 am
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Interesting.

Back in the day I was thinking about the "preliminary conditions" for a Polish AU that could be based on Poland's uninterrupted independence since XVIII Century, but in the end I reckoned that in such case many historical events, both in XIX and XX Century, that were (among others) crucial to the development of military equipment (including naval) couldn't happen "in time and the way we know it" (not really due to importance of the Poland itself, but rather because it's location between Germany and Russia - and presence, or rather lack thereof - of the common border between them and the influence of that situation on the overall political climate and balance of power on the continent. :roll: ).
(Of course, one can write anything into the AU timeline, as they say "paper is patient, accepts everything" - point is, that simply I would be not satisfied with certain kinds of shortcuts)
That said, I wish You'll turn out to be much more imaginative than me and this will turn out to be a well-thought AU. :)

Just few things:
1) I don't think that such Commonwealth's formal name would (could!) be Rzeczpospolita Polska. Precisely because it's not just Polish.
2) Population for 1940 looks bit low to me - given that in 1939 real-life Poland had a population of 34 million and from the text I assume that territorial extent of the Commonwealth is wider than this (eastern borders of Rzeczpospolita in 1790 still extended almost to Kiev, practically all today's Belarus - so even with border on Berezyna, it's still most of it and not so much more westwards, and here You have also the large chunks of the Baltic areas).
3) Writing "Traitors" (of Targowica) with capital "T" was really amusing. ;)
4)
Archelaos wrote: *
Resulting peace had Russian Tsar maintain formal suzerainty over Polish king
I'm not sure Tsar could maintain something he never (until that point) had. 1768 Sejm created russian emperor (or, in that case: empress) a guarantor of Cardinal Laws (which in effect created a de iure protectorate, but that's not exactly the same as suzerainty, though it's a bit subtle debate), BUT the point of 1791 Constitution was repuditation of these Laws and therefore of the protectorate. That in turn means (leaving aside debate on how much protectorate can be called suzerainty) IMHO that either 3 of May Constitution has to be annuled in order to Tsar "maintain formal suzerainty..." or the Commonwealth can't have the "free hand in reforms, internal and external affairs", as these two alternatives seem to me mutually contradictory, since the formal suzerainty (as opposed to informal and/or de facto means of influence) of Petersburg over Warsaw was based on guaranteeing of the (abolished in 1791) Cardinal Laws.
5) Introduction of napoleonic reforms after 1806/1807, in a situation when Poland does not owe it's independence to France, seems bit deus ex machina to me (considering that at least some of them would involve rather strong opposition from certain sectors of the elites) - but that's just a digression. ;)
6) And sudden turning sides against Napoleon - while completely reasonable and typical to that era, looks so un-Polish... :lol:
(by all means, keep it that way, it's just sooo "non-stereotypically-Polish" ;) )
7) Obtaining of the Trinidad seems completely unlikely to me (why would British hand it over to anyone? unless as a result of a lost war with that 'anyone') - but I understand You wanted to have a colony in that area, so there's not much more to talk about - it just has to be. :/
8) Re: ORP Praga - rather "Kircholm" or old-style "Kirchholm" ( http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geogra ... Tom_IV/101 ), but rather not "Kirholm", I think. ;)
9) Btw. why all these wars against France?

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Archelaos
Post subject: Re: Navy of PLK CommonwealthPosted: August 5th, 2018, 8:23 pm
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eswube wrote: *
Interesting.

Back in the day I was thinking about the "preliminary conditions" for a Polish AU that could be based on Poland's uninterrupted independence since XVIII Century, but in the end I reckoned that in such case many historical events, both in XIX and XX Century, that were (among others) crucial to the development of military equipment (including naval) couldn't happen "in time and the way we know it" (not really due to importance of the Poland itself, but rather because it's location between Germany and Russia - and presence, or rather lack thereof - of the common border between them and the influence of that situation on the overall political climate and balance of power on the continent. :roll: ).
(Of course, one can write anything into the AU timeline, as they say "paper is patient, accepts everything" - point is, that simply I would be not satisfied with certain kinds of shortcuts)
That said, I wish You'll turn out to be much more imaginative than me and this will turn out to be a well-thought AU. :)

Just few things:
1) I don't think that such Commonwealth's formal name would (could!) be Rzeczpospolita Polska. Precisely because it's not just Polish.
2) Population for 1940 looks bit low to me - given that in 1939 real-life Poland had a population of 34 million and from the text I assume that territorial extent of the Commonwealth is wider than this (eastern borders of Rzeczpospolita in 1790 still extended almost to Kiev, practically all today's Belarus - so even with border on Berezyna, it's still most of it and not so much more westwards, and here You have also the large chunks of the Baltic areas).
3) Writing "Traitors" (of Targowica) with capital "T" was really amusing. ;)
4)
Archelaos wrote: *
Resulting peace had Russian Tsar maintain formal suzerainty over Polish king
I'm not sure Tsar could maintain something he never (until that point) had. 1768 Sejm created russian emperor (or, in that case: empress) a guarantor of Cardinal Laws (which in effect created a de iure protectorate, but that's not exactly the same as suzerainty, though it's a bit subtle debate), BUT the point of 1791 Constitution was repuditation of these Laws and therefore of the protectorate. That in turn means (leaving aside debate on how much protectorate can be called suzerainty) IMHO that either 3 of May Constitution has to be annuled in order to Tsar "maintain formal suzerainty..." or the Commonwealth can't have the "free hand in reforms, internal and external affairs", as these two alternatives seem to me mutually contradictory, since the formal suzerainty (as opposed to informal and/or de facto means of influence) of Petersburg over Warsaw was based on guaranteeing of the (abolished in 1791) Cardinal Laws.
5) Introduction of napoleonic reforms after 1806/1807, in a situation when Poland does not owe it's independence to France, seems bit deus ex machina to me (considering that at least some of them would involve rather strong opposition from certain sectors of the elites) - but that's just a digression. ;)
6) And sudden turning sides against Napoleon - while completely reasonable and typical to that era, looks so un-Polish... :lol:
(by all means, keep it that way, it's just sooo "non-stereotypically-Polish" ;) )
7) Obtaining of the Trinidad seems completely unlikely to me (why would British hand it over to anyone? unless as a result of a lost war with that 'anyone') - but I understand You wanted to have a colony in that area, so there's not much more to talk about - it just has to be. :/
8) Re: ORP Praga - rather "Kircholm" or old-style "Kirchholm" ( http://dir.icm.edu.pl/pl/Slownik_geogra ... Tom_IV/101 ), but rather not "Kirholm", I think. ;)
9) Btw. why all these wars against France?
Yes, you are right, building a scenario where Poland survives (that is even somewhat realistic) is very difficult, especially if you try to have a world broadly resembling real in 1900. Initially I only designed the battle at Praga and death of Katherine, receiving colony on Trinidad (as starting point for the navy), winning Madagascar and creating a state there (kickstarting funds to build a navy into first league to fit in game in 1900). Now I am diving deeper to write this AU and amount of questions is stunning – for example how would Russian navy operate without ice free ports of Courland, what would be the status of Gdańsk, is it possible to create canal network in PLKC to connect Vistula to Dvina, so exports could go through owned port or would Prussia be strong enough to form Germany if they had not occupied Greater Poland and at least part of the Silesia (without at least some Silesian mines chances for industrialization in PLKC are slim).
I had seen a nice AU on a blog where author diverges at November uprising - no uprising, so “Congress Poland” keeps it’s constitution, law, army etc, and then during Crimean War rebel against Russia, achieving a bit of territory (basically pre-WWII eastern border + Lithuania and Courland) with Konstanty Romanow as king, so effectively independent but in unbreakable alliance with Russia.
Early XXth century history is much easier to write - I almost complete record of history 1900 to 1928 (notes from the game), though this means that early XXth century look completely different than "our". I'm still trying to figure out if I can fit a world war or sth similar somewhere.

1)It is definitely not just Polish in modern meaning of this word. The original plan for the name was to expand PLK Commonwealth that I used for a mod. Then I put this: "Polish-Lithuanian-Cossack-Couron Commonwealth" in writing and it felt way too long for a state name. On the other hand simple "The Commonwealth" (Rzeczpospolita) while way more probable (and in fact used back in the day) would be strange for English users who have their own Commonwealth. So, as the 3rd May Constitution refer to the “delegates of Polish Nation”, I decided to use Rzeczpospolita Polska. The nations as we know them were finally formed during XIXth century so meaning of Polish in the context of this AU could be very different and way broader than what we know today.

2) Commonwealth had 12-14mln in 1790 and I kept historical high growth in XIXth century to keep roughly historical levels in 1900. But in the twenties and thirties Poland had insane pop growth - 12-18%, resulting in large population jump - from 27mln in 1921 to 35mln in 1938. That is almost three times as much as France (from 39 to 42mln) in the same time frame. I decided to use lower pop growth for PLKC in XXth century, more typical for rich and stable countries, as only those would be capable of fielding serious navy. There were also population losses in a string of wars - 1921-22, 25 and especially 30-33.

3) That's a name of organization, or at least that’s how they are known in PLKC :D

4)I thought about it as a compromise - Tsar allows everything in the Constitution (and more, in fact) in exchange for a formal title that allows him to claim that he had not lost a war. Besides, resulting non aggression pact would allow Russian troops to march through Commonwealth lands and take part in Napoleonic Wars and thus keep history as close to as possible to real one.

5) Well, elements of napoleonic reforms would be sth Kościuszko would like to enact but will have a problem to do under normal conditions (f.e. abolition of serfdom) so making them appear as napoleonic while having French troops available just in case (and additional support from proper geopolitical situation- recent defeats to Russian army averted by timely arrival of Napoleon) would be a wise thing to do.

6) I agree :twisted:
Desperate situation require desperate measures as it is the only way to be among the winners without Napoleon completely messing up the history by winning :mrgreen:

7) I agree, but IMHO for Commonwealth to start developing blue water navy it needs colonies worthy of protection (so a tiny island somewhere won’t do). I thought about Tobago (laying claims to old Couronian attempt at colony, or even making it a successful colony as a part of AU) but it is small and what's more, Rule the Waves has single possession for both islands so I picked bigger one.

8) Thanks for catching this typo!

9) First (1883-4) is to obtain Madagascar - France had it in crosshairs and I don't think they would let it go to the Commonwealth without a fight. Besides, it served as a backstory for the second one (1903-4). This was the war I fought in game. As you do not have direct control over diplomacy and can only influence it as response to randomized events I can only say that politicians messed up :D

BDW is that coat of arms of Toruń in your avatar?


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eswube
Post subject: Re: Navy of PLK CommonwealthPosted: August 5th, 2018, 9:22 pm
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Archelaos wrote: *
(...) though this means that early XXth century look completely different than "our". I'm still trying to figure out if I can fit a world war or sth similar somewhere.
Well, that's precisely my biggest problem: certain succession of certain wars (from Crimean to both World Wars) is to me an absolute prerequisite to have a "like in the real-world" development of weapon systems. :/

1) Rzeczpospolita Czworga Narodów (Commonwealth of Four Nations) is IMHO perfectly fine.
(or Pięciorga Narodów - Five Nations - if we include Madagascar ;) )
Using term Polish is IMHO completely ok as a descriptive term "on Forum", but not as a "formal name of the country" (as used by You).

2) Well, ok, sounds legit. ;)

3) Given that "Targowica" and "traitor" are essentialy synonymous in Polish language, I'd say it's a pleonasm. :lol:

4) Problem is, that, the Russian protectorate, which was introduced through the Traktat wieczystej przyjaźni pomiędzy Rosją a Rzecząpospolitą (articles IV and V) mentioned no "formal title" the Empress nor her successors could retain or lose.
And even the 1793 version of the Cardinal Laws stated:

...być ma na zawsze Rzecząpospolitą nierozdzielną, wolną i nikomu nie podległą, której władza najwyższa i prawodawcza zamyka się w sejmie...
(...ought to be for ever the Commonwealth indivisible, free and subordinated to no-one, whose supreme and law-making authority is vested in sejm...)

Right of russian armies pass through the territory of the Commonwealth can be enacted in some other form. (like a new treaty of "eternal friendship").

5-9) Well... for the lack of better option... ;)

Yes, that's CoA of Toruń (minus the angel, of course). That's where I was born and spent first 33 years of my life (before the blossoming "freedom", "liberal democracy" and "ever rising GDP on the Green Island of economic growth" in the "best ever 25 years in our history" put me before the choice between starving or migrating to the UK). ;)

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Archelaos
Post subject: Re: Navy of PLK CommonwealthPosted: April 17th, 2019, 12:42 pm
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A long time had passed, but finally I'm back!

This time with something from deep XIXth century :D First simple recolour of Darth Panda's beautiful Cruizer-class sloop. Done last year, but never posted.

[ img ]

First ships of the recreated Commonwealth Navy were Cruizer-class sloops. First two were ordered in 1813, and further seven were built or bought completed from British after the end of Napoleonic Wars.
Those were named OORP Orzeł, Żelazny Wilk, Kurlandia, Archanioł, Żmudź, Militiades, Ryga, Sokół and Thanatos.


My first attempt on sail ship. I have to admit paddle wheel was very difficult for me. still not 100% happy with how it looks, but it's the best I could get.

[ img ]

The success of Greek steam ship Karteria during their war of independence rose interest in The Commonwealth Naval Department on this new and revolutionary propulsion method. They quickly realised that on confined waters of Baltic it could offer massive advantages over both traditional sail ships and galleys used both by Russians and Swedes. As result, two ships, ORP Korona and ORP Pogoń were ordered in British yards in 1828 and delivered in 1829. Initial tests proven very promising and in the next year two more, OORP Gryf and Kijów were constructed in Ryga under supervision of British shipwrights. Obviously, steam plant was still British made, but guns came from Royal Arsenals in Warsaw and Wilno.
Korona ran aground near Ventspils port during a storm in 1831 and was destroyed by resulting fire. Remains were later scrapped. Other ships took part in the Courland War (1832-33). Their contribution was vital in ravaging Russian trade, while being usually capable outrunning pursuing Russians. Pogoń was especially effective. Under the command of captain Dinhoff, she managed the most daring operation - on the night 14/15 March 1833 they captured Russian 44-gun frigate Amfitrida anchored close to the port of Parnawa and managed to return home with the prize. Only one was lost, on 22 October 1832 Gryf was cornered by two frigates and two steamships. After fierce clash, Polish ship was sunk, though not before it severely damaged Russian flagship Yunona. Kijów was broken up in 1835, while Pogoń was sold to a private owner.

While armed with only 8 guns, 6 of those were the biggest available - 68-pounder carronades, while other two were 32-pounders, giving those ships great firepower up close.
Speed under steam: 8 kts

eswube wrote: *
Well, that's precisely my biggest problem: certain succession of certain wars (from Crimean to both World Wars) is to me an absolute prerequisite to have a "like in the real-world" development of weapon systems. :/

1) Rzeczpospolita Czworga Narodów (Commonwealth of Four Nations) is IMHO perfectly fine.
(or Pięciorga Narodów - Five Nations - if we include Madagascar ;) )
Using term Polish is IMHO completely ok as a descriptive term "on Forum", but not as a "formal name of the country" (as used by You).
After reconsideration I agree that you are right. I changed the official name to Rzeczpospolita (The Commonwealth).

As for succession of wars, I assume Russian interventions in the South would stay roughly the same. So for example Crimean War could indeed happen (though not exactly on the same dates) possibly with the Commonwealth joining at some point :twisted: Russia will clash with PLKC at least twice during XIXth century, and then again in 1914...

The bigger problem for the world history would be interaction with Prussia, as they are weaker already, not having Greater Poland region, and I'd like to pry Silesia from them somewhere during XIXth century... But then, they could be to weak to unify Germany... Still thinking over it :D


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eswube
Post subject: Re: Navy of PLK CommonwealthPosted: April 18th, 2019, 7:47 pm
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Very nice ships.
Btw. since the official name of the country is now just Rzeczpospolita, then the prefix in the ships' names can't be ORP - because that "P" is no longer valid. ;)
Yeah, the unification of Germany by Silesia-less Prussia is indeed a problem - probably biggest in regards to 1866 Prussian-Austrian war (as the imbalance during 1870-1871 war against France could be somewhat circumvented by achieving only minor victory over France, without siege of Paris, proclamation of Reich in Versailles etc.).

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