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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: AntaraPosted: May 16th, 2018, 11:42 am
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Sorry to put a short history lesson into your subject. Your ships are okay, but as other have pointed out the bridge etc are rather low.

The answer is "Height Is Vision". Before 1938-39 and the first fumblings of radar, the higher you could get your eyes with and without binoculars/telescopes the further you could see and detect your enemy.

So you had ships with very high masts with the crows nest as high as possible. Aided to that you also had you main gunnery directors as high as possible in the ship so that they could 'see' as far as your guns could fire.

After, say, 1940 it did not matter as much as it was your radars that needed to be carried as high as possible for detection purposes. But you still wanted your radar augmented gunnery directors to be as high as possible to be able to fire at the targets your radars had detected.

Others may be able to explain it better and maybe should have done so earlier.


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Shigure
Post subject: Re: AntaraPosted: May 16th, 2018, 2:00 pm
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Colosseum wrote: *
Cool but I can't help but think the aftmost 5" gun just doesn't have enough usable arc to justify its weight / crew requirements.

Prop guards should also always be centered over the outboard propellers.

Otherwise looking quite good as usual.
The mistake with the aft 5" mount can be fixed with the next class, no ship is designed perfect :D

I'll fix the prop guard issue soon.
Krakatoa wrote: *
Sorry to put a short history lesson into your subject. Your ships are okay, but as other have pointed out the bridge etc are rather low.

The answer is "Height Is Vision". Before 1938-39 and the first fumblings of radar, the higher you could get your eyes with and without binoculars/telescopes the further you could see and detect your enemy.

So you had ships with very high masts with the crows nest as high as possible. Aided to that you also had you main gunnery directors as high as possible in the ship so that they could 'see' as far as your guns could fire.

After, say, 1940 it did not matter as much as it was your radars that needed to be carried as high as possible for detection purposes. But you still wanted your radar augmented gunnery directors to be as high as possible to be able to fire at the targets your radars had detected.

Others may be able to explain it better and maybe should have done so earlier.
I've compared the height of my directors to USN cruisers and they seem pretty close, either slightly higher, slightly lower, or on the same level as their IRL counterparts. The same goes for the general superstructure. You may also notice the later refits of the this class in particular have their aft directors raised.
Hood wrote: *
A nice design.
I would have been tempted to run the forecastle deck a little further aft to gain some extra internal space.

Also, there appears to be a kink in the bilge keel and hull shading just under the aft funnel, is this intentional?
Nice spot! This was an error brought on by lengthening the hull.


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Shigure
Post subject: Re: AntaraPosted: May 16th, 2018, 3:11 pm
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I'm sure I've addressed all of the issues with the design. I've reuploaded them.


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Shigure
Post subject: Re: AntaraPosted: May 26th, 2018, 8:33 am
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Jacinta class light cruiser

[ img ]

As the final prewar light cruiser built by the Antaran navy, the Jacintas were similiar in displacement to their heavy cruisers but were built for a seperate role. Their 6" rifles had an obvious rate of fire advantage, and for that reason they were meant to compliment destroyer flotillas, whilst the Navy's CAs were meant to compliment capital ships. The first two vessels of the class, Jacinta and Danita, were commissioned in late 1936. Due to the Second London Naval Treaty, the class was forced to be reclassified as a heavy cruiser due to displacing over 8000 tonnes, and in addition her 6" triples were replaced with 8" twins. As they weren't designed to carry these new mounts there were several mechanical issues that arose as a result of this, however they were replaced with their original guns at the outbreak of war (excl. ARS Annora).

For protection, Jacinta had a 127mm belt and a 50mm deck. On trials all ships achieved a minimum 34.5 knots, excluding ARS Delport which was plagued with propulsion issues following incorrect replacement of her gun mounts and barbettes and thus she achieved only 30 knots up until 1942.

The Jacintas were generally considered the best cruiser class the Navy had ever produced from a design standpoint, as succeeding cruisers were directly based on this design layout. Their wartime careers were extensive: Annora was torpedoed during the Battle of the Java Sea, Delport was heavily damaged during the Battle of Tuscadia and scuttled as a result. Azura City, Monmouth and Wilmington served mostly in the Atlantic theater, usually as coastal bombardment. Bentwood is mostly known for being the last vessel to be hit by a Kamikaze, as late as 1947 by a trainer.

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ARS Annora never mounted 6" guns as she was deployed to South East Asia before the war started.

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The Standard 40 scheme was designed to be applied to warships serving in the Atlantic Fleet. ARS Danita served in the Atlantic until 1942, where she was transferred to the Pacific still in her Standard 40 until 1943.

[And enter my first ship using Measure 22, and you can thank Colosseum for 'convincing' me to use it]

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Ships

Jacinta - scrapped, 1948
Danita - scrapped, 1947
Azura City - sunk in testing, 1948
Maxine - scrapped, 1948
Bentwood - Scrapped, 1947
Delport - scuttled, 1943
Annora - torpedoed, 1941
Monmouth - scrapped, 1950
Wilmington - scuttled as reef ship, 1951


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Shigure
Post subject: Re: AntaraPosted: May 26th, 2018, 8:42 am
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4-5 December 1940 - Battle Off Manila

By December 1940 Singapore and Burma fell. Antarans naval forces in the Pacific still hadn’t fully mobilised and thus Japan was only countered by the British who couldn’t put up enough of a fight. Antarans first real sortie (excluding the submarine arm) was an evacuation of her army forces stationed in the Philippines. Once it became clear Antara could not hold her possessions in South-East Asia it was decided they would be abandoned to avoid losses.

The Antaran’s second naval encounter with Japan was on 4 December 1940, against their Southern Expeditionary Fleet. One of two fleet elements assisting in the evacuation of remaining Antaran forces in the Philippines was intercepted before arriving south of Manila. At 14:30 the Antaran force was 4km off Manila when visual contact was made with the Japanese squadron North-West of Manila, led by cruisers Takao and Atago, escorted by destroyers Sagiri, Oboro, Akebono, Murasame and Kawakaze.

The flagship of the Antaran force was ARS Speirs under command of Captain McCaine. The destroyer flotilla under his command included Eastwood, Richmond and Lara, all of whom were assigned to protect seven transport ships for Antaran troops awaiting evacuation. IJA land based aircraft had spotted the force hours earlier and thus Takao and Atago were prepared to face them, which allowed them to attain the element of surprise. The Antarans requested support from any surrounding units, which was picked up by cruiser Alexandria and a submarine which was under radio silence. Neither ships was able to assist in time.

The Japanese destroyers screened for their cruisers, being the first to open fire. ARS Richmond created a smoke screen and headed towards North-East Manila, covering the transports who continued along their original course for the port. The other destroyers took course in the opposite direction, west, in hopes to lure the enemy away from the transports. The Japanese force split into two groups, Akebono and Murasame went east after Richmond, while the rest went after Speirs and the two other destroyers. Akebono and Murasame fired in total ten torpedoes towards Richmond, which was still laying a smoke screen. Both IJN destroyers held their fire and turned again to close in on Richmond, their captains thinking that opening fire would cause Richmond to begin maneuvering and thus avoid their torpedoes. Richmond however spotted the torpedoes regardless, but her captain made the mistake of directing the ship east behind her own smokescreen, making the torpedoes impossible to spot. Richmond was hit by a torpedo and her stern was blown off. Richmond sank with her bow facing up at the loss of 62 sailors. Of the 9 torpedoes that continued to sail, one hit a transport ship, while the rest overshot the slow moving vessels.

Unsure of the outcome of the torpedo attack, Akebono and Murasame turned back west to support their allies. At 14:50 the Antarans opened fire on Sagiri who led the Japanese column. Both groups turned and sailed relatively parallel to one another, the Antarans still needing to close into their 8km torpedo range, whilst Sagiri fired her entire set of long lance torpedoes. A shell hit her middle torpedo launcher, but the torpedo tubes were already empty, so the damage was insignificant. The Antaran force turned closer towards the IJN force as soon as their torpedoes were spotted, drawing them into a very uncomfortable range. McCain then ordered his last trailing destroyer, ARS Lara, to turn east towards Manila. The forces were now travelling opposite one another and trading large volumes of shells. The Antarans’ high rate of fire ensured Oboro sustained heavy damage before her boilers exploded, causing her to drift off. Kawakaze turned away to avoid colliding with the now disabled Oboro. Takao and Atago who were 2km way from their screening destroyers turned east, brought their guns to bear and opened fire on Eastwood and Lara. Takao landed three main battery shells on Lara, but it was shells from her 127mm battery that caused hull breaches, which caused her to flood and slowly sink.

[ img ]
[I updated ARS Speirs and redid her camo scheme. Her original was kinda ugly. Her image under the Jinora class has also been updated]

Eastwood succumbed to gunfire from both cruisers and sank with all hands on board. The smoke and fire from Eastwood covered Speirs’ escape, who retreated at a speed of 40 knots unpursued. The disabled Oboro was later torpedoed by a responding submarine. Cruiser Alexandria, escorted by destroyers Urana and Harper, passed by Speirs which retired from the engagement. By 16:00, Manila was blockaded by the Japanese force, but the transport vessels had made it into the bay and continued with the evacuation whilst being harrassed by land based planes. Alexandria, along with her escorts engaged the IJN taskforce at at 16:20. Atago withdrew due to evading torpedoes from Urana, the latter of which ended up getting torpedoed by destroyer Sagiri. Takao and Alexandria engaged in an indecisive gun duel, Takao retreated due to receiving heavy damage from 8" and 5" fire (from Harper), whilst Alexandria's command deck was destroyed. The confusion due to the lack of leadership (the command crew was killed) ended in the cruiser wandering away from the battlefield for nearly an hour. The transports Alexandria was also escorting was guided in by Harper, who in turn provided cover inside the bay while procedures continued well into the night and early morning. Whilst attempting to leave the harbour, ARS Harper was targetted by a G3M and torpedoed.

By 4:30AM additional Antaran forces had arrived for support, which included the destroyers Arden and Corwood, as well as 'light' cruiser Annora (she mounted 8" guns which were supposed to be replaced with 6" rifles). By 5:30AM, twelve of the original seventeen transport ships had escaped the harbour, as the rest had either been sunk by gunfire from IJN cruisers the previous night or had been bombed by aircraft. At 7:20AM, while the Antaran flotilla was withdrawing from the area they were followed by aircraft from the IJN carrier Zuikaku and Shoukaku. Their strikes were moderately successful, one retreating transport was torpedoed and Arden took two bombs which slowed her propulsion down to 8 knots and destroyed her forward battery turrets and somehow caused the gun director to stop working. Arden's captain made a transmission to the flotilla commander, stating they would catch up after they finished repairs. Arden downed two planes during and after the first strike, two D3As, whose surviving pilots were picked up by the vessel's whaleboat. Submarine V-81 (ARS Roseland) came to the assistance of the destroyer at 8:40 and after failing to find a way to get the ship moving after it's engines completely failed, Roseland offered to tow her to Surubaya. While en route to Surubaya via the Makassar Straight, both ships encountered patrolling IJN destroyers Harukaze and Asakaze which were in fact pursuing them after the previous air attacks. While Arden was a vastly superior destroyer to the older IJN boats, the combination of her slow speed (she was still being towed) and her mostly inoperable main battery meant she was unable to effectivly defend herself from the shelling that soon came. Roseland initially detached from Arden and opened fire with her single 100mm gun, but dove to periscope depth soon after. Torpedo attacks were unsuccessful as they were easily avoided by the fast IJN destroyers, who after apparently sinking Arden(reports are murky about what actually happened to the ship after Roseland dived, though it has been obviously concluded she was lost as Arden never returned to port) attempted to depth charge her. Roseland went silent for several hours and managed to evade both ships.

However Harukaze and Asakaze were sunk within a week after the battle, the latter was torpedoed by a PT boat and the former was rather poetically torpedoed by Roseland whilst on war patrol.


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BB1987
Post subject: Re: AntaraPosted: May 26th, 2018, 10:25 am
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Possibly your best cruisers yet.
And yes, thanks to Colosseum, the Measure22 really suits the look! :D

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Sources and documentations are the most welcome.

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Shigure
Post subject: Re: AntaraPosted: June 14th, 2018, 5:38 pm
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Azura Junko class battleship

[ img ]

[repeat from the description]

Diagram showing ranking structure of people mentioned

The weight of the naval treaties lead to great dissatisfaction in the Antaran navy, and the Second London Naval treaty which, at first restricted battleship guns to 14" in 1935, was once again changed to 15" after several countries still refused to sign the treaty. Antara's king, still trying to 'maintain the peace', of course signed every treaty that was thrown is country's way. The anger among the navy boiled over and some of Antara's admirals conspired to violate the treaty in secret. The two Fleet Admirals Nicholas Doyle and Frederich Bradford, as well as two other subordinate admirals, initially discussed the idea of constructing a battleship class that would clearly exceed the tonnage and main gun calibre limit to make up for the supposed weakness in Antara's current series of warships. The Erica Junkos, while being armed and armoured pretty well by Antaran standards, was not fast considered fast enough to escort the navy's new carriers which were rated over 30 knots. The navy could not construct an improved version of the Ericas, let alone a repeat due to the main armament restrictions.

Fleet Admiral Doyle informed Grand Admiral Cole (equivalent to Admiral of the Navy) of the proposal, who was convinced and accepted. In 1936 the Admiralty held secret negotiations with the director of the Bureau of Naval Construction, under the nose of the king, about ideas on an ideal battleship which disregarded the treaty. Erin White's 60k tonne battleship with 3x3 410mm guns, 33 knots and very well armoured design won. The Bureau and the Admiralty managed to convince Minister of the Navy Jacobs to allow the design to go through, all whilst under the nose of the king. The fear of prosecution for treason was high among the members involved in the project, but it was assured by the Minister that she would receive most of the blame in the event the project was found out.

The Entarro State Shipyards was chosen for the new warship as the yards were already being expanded to allow for the construction of fleet carriers due to begin in 1938. Minister Jacobs assigned the name Azura Junko for the first vessel, as well as a dummy 35k tonne version to cover the budget. The second dummy vessel was not named until 1939, where the the second vessel was to be named Eisen Junko. Azura was laid down in 1938, the same year king William Junko stepped down and his daughter inhereted the throne. Taking advantage of the new queen's lack of knowledge and experience, Minister Jacobs revealed the construction of the battleship and received approval to continue with the project at last.

Eisen Junko was laid down months before the start of WW2 for Antara in 1940, when dockyards were available for a ship her size, after Azura was commissioned. A third Azura Junko was planned, but abandoned in favour of more fleet carriers.

As laid down, the class displaced 60400 tonnes standard. She was by far the most armoured warship the navy had built, with a 406mm main belt, with 127mm ends, 203mm upper belt and 155mm main deck.

Azura Junko's crew was still undergoing training once the war had begun and only after additional refits, in late 1940, was she commissioned and placed into the Pacific Fleet. She saw action during the Battle of the Solomon Sea in April 1941, serving as a carrier escort. Azura's anti-aircraft power was greatly demonstrated during the engagement, following attacks from Shoukaku, Zuikaku and Shouhou, the latter of which made a dedicated attack against the battleship by most of her squadrens. Azura Junko gave a significant contribution to shooting down all of Shouhou's planes, though many had already released their payload. Azura Junko was forced into cramped Australian repair docks for several months due to torpedo hits. However Azura's contribution to the battle wasn't really felt as her task force still suffered considerable damage during the battle, ultimately costing Antara the entire region for over a year. Azura Junko was rebased to Port Isla once it became clear the Navy had lost control of the Coral Sea and sorrounding areas.

Back in home waters, Azura had her wartime camoflauge applied. She was present at the Battle of Vescadia (Midway), though the battle was ultimately one sided and Antara was forced to withdraw, Azura did however shoot down a scout plane launched from cruiser Tone and rescue her pilots. Azura Junko was joined by her newly commissioned sistership Eisen Junko and were both present during the Battle of Tuscadia in 1943. Eisen Junko is famously known for sinking Musashi during this battle, whilst Azura Junko was infamously known for almost being sunk by her.

Both vessels were present during the Solomon Islands campaign, but only as AA escorts, and it would continue to be this way until the end of the war. During the Battle of the Philipines in 1944, Azura Junko became the one of the stars of possibly the most well known battleship duel in naval warfare, and sunk Yamato. This was arguably more famous than the sinking of Musashi, being that it was the last battleship duel in history. Following the loss of the IJN's combat capability in 1944, both vessels continued to serve as carrier escorts and offshore bombardment units until the end of the war. Though, unlike Antara's other battleships, they continued to serve long after the war. Eisen was finally scrapped in 1987, while Azura was preserved as a museam ship after being decommissioned in 1992.

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This is my first vessel to feature 76mm twin AA mounts.

I'll be doing post war refits at a later date.

Ships in class

Azura Junko - preserved as museam ship, 1992
Eisen Junko - scrapped, 1987


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: AntaraPosted: June 14th, 2018, 10:23 pm
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Wow!
The fastest battleship build I have ever seen. 14/3/38 to 02/06/40 - just 27 months. I don't think even the US built one that fast. Certainly not one your size of monster.


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shipsinker
Post subject: Re: AntaraPosted: June 14th, 2018, 10:25 pm
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would love to see a top down view


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Shigure
Post subject: Re: AntaraPosted: June 15th, 2018, 7:07 am
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Krakatoa wrote: *
Wow!
The fastest battleship build I have ever seen. 14/3/38 to 02/06/40 - just 27 months. I don't think even the US built one that fast. Certainly not one your size of monster.
Antara isn't exactly the same as the US.

Also I made an error in the description: Eisen Junko would not have been completed in 1940, but rather 1941.

shipsinker wrote: *
would love to see a top down view
I was actually working on one but lost the drive.


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