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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 25th, 2020, 2:01 pm
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Work on the revised "Bismarck" drawing is in progress. There were many things to do, according to the suggestions of "acelancealoet": Replacing the main cranes for smaller ones (only for boats, not for planes anymore); redo all the lines and the shadings (btw. I don't know why, the initial drawing of Maomatic which I use as basic project design for my AU "Bismarck" had many, many parts left white, I don't know why...). Then, by redoing the lines I had to understand in detail what each part stand there for, mainly on the area on and around the funnel. And by comparing with detailed pics of big scale models I found in the net get the info I needed to try to redo "my Bismarck" the best possible. That's slow work, guys...

AU: In the meantime, GEMA (German manufacturer of radar parts) came with a new type of area search matress and "we" took the opportunity to replace the installed FuMO 27 by this new one, which is vertically polarized. It sends out stronger signals, on a slightly different frequence, augmenting the impact of the echo, of the reflected signals. This led to a new display in the radar control room, with better information of said echo. This new radar is designated FuMO 28, itself an evolution of the previously installed FuMO 27. The main change operationally speaking was that mounted on top of the main conning tower this radar set had an astonidhing range of some 40km, though a reliable accuracy for finding the range of the target was more on the 30km distance, with a possible deviation of some 0.2º. FuMO 26 had 0.25 already but a max distance of 25km.

This new radar set served as primary detection radar, its findings were then given to the main control room which, according to the type of enemy vessel, led the signal to other units, these ones serving as fire control stations. AA gunnery had different sets of precision radar units, with dish antennae of some 1.5 to 2m of diameter. The control room of the AA gunnery worked separately from the ones controlling the fore and aft heavy sea artillery plus the medium sized placed midship. Both control rooms - sea artillery and AA - had two compartments, one each for the front faced guns and the aft faced ones. This allowed a more independent operation if multiple targets showed up at the same time. However, and according to the arc of each gun mount, the ship's artillery was partially interchangeable in that the rear artillery could fire sideways together with the front one. In these cases, the main commanding station gave both sub-control rooms the same instructions regarding bearing, distance and height in case of attacking airplanes.

Another explanation I want to give regards the increased beam (and accordingly increased length and displacement) of "Bismarck": The North Sea and also the North Atlantic have - trusting here reports I read - different wave characteristics than the South Atlantic, the Indian Ocean and the Pacific. The distance between waves is shorter in the North Sea and in the North Atlantic and even being shorter, waves of astonishing heights can build up comparing to, for instance, what happens in the "Roaring Fourties" of the southern hemisphere (exception maybe the Cape Horn region, where the waves of the Pacific get "compressed" by the South America's tip, same happening to the winds blowing in the west-east direction.

These facts led to a wider ship than, say, the Iowa class battleships, which are more sleek. Even Hood had a lower length/width ratio. Being wider, Bismarck was slower, even with another powertrain installed giving more 50.000 shp and four screws instead on three. The difference was some 2 knots at max speed, the German battleship reaching around 30 knots, but that was not the major concern of the leaders of the DKM. Much more important was the ship's stability and seagoing capability even high up to the Arctic and, on the other hand, the ship's navigation and artillery capabilities even (or especially) in foul weather.

This philosophy was applied to all the ships of the DKM planned and built after 1937. Maybe the one or the other knows the term "der blanke Hans", which was the way the German mariners (military and civilian as well) referred to the dangerous high white topped seas of the North Sea (ref. Cajus Becker "Verdammte See").

And here she is, according to the latest "state of the art" in 1940. More a "show off" of German naval technology of that time than a ship to fight traditional heavy naval battles, although she was sent in the Spring of 1941 to the Black Sea, to the newly opened German naval base at Varna, Bulgaria, officially to guarantee the integrity of the oil fields of the region (I know these are in Romania, on the other side of the border...), but in reality to wait for the "Baltic Alliance" to mount up a southern army to attack the Soviet army from the Black Sea, in a claw movement. But this is another story.

[ img ]


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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 27th, 2020, 12:17 am
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I only now realized that Krakatoa had four years ago made his own DKM "AU fleet"... So I see no reason for yet another AU, though based on a somehow "historical background" (the URSS invading Finland triggering the "Baltic Alliance" (AU) and Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour where some ships of the DKM by accident were caught in...


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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 27th, 2020, 5:12 am
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Awesome job!

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 27th, 2020, 9:02 am
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Everybody has differing ideas on what should happen with the German Navy. If you think they should design and build a different set of ships than both myself and the real life designers went for. Then go for it. We will all watch with interest what you come up with.


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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 27th, 2020, 10:15 am
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Krakatoa wrote: *
Everybody has differing ideas on what should happen with the German Navy. If you think they should design and build a different set of ships than both myself and the real life designers went for. Then go for it. We will all watch with interest what you come up with.
Oh, that's an interesting comment, Krakatoa! Okay, if you say so, I feel more motivated to go on. Another thing: Did you work with Maomatic on the above design of DKM "Bismarck" as well, as you did with other ships of the DKM? If yes, tell me so, I want to add your name as well. It's more than fair.


Last edited by Cargil48 on August 27th, 2020, 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 27th, 2020, 11:14 am
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Regarding the basic scenario, I must go deeper into "the story" I began with in the first place to give some interest to all of this. Germany is by the end of the 30s a "consolidated country", with a regime similar to the one of Spain with Franco. "You behave like you should and no harm happens to you and the constitutional rights are granted, except free association for political purposes", was more or less the "mot du jour"... von Witzleben, the new Chancellor, knew very well that he had to get a tightly knit cabinet to rule the country, mostly improving its economy, education and welfare. The propaganda the nazis used the way we know in real life is in my AU "turned the other way around", pointing at every occasion to what happenes to a country when everyone wants to do what comes into his mind: Anarchy. Germany had more than ten years of deep social unrest and the cruel Spanish civil war was obviously used in-depth to impress the society as what has to be avoided at all cost. On the other hand, the government's propaganda units were well informed about the more than criminal "Stalin purges" which occured during the 30s and both scenarios were the main pillars for von Witzleben and his (mostly) Prussian high ranking officers to point out the need for a firm hand until a full democratic political scenario could be reestablished.

One thing greatly implemented were public investments. The point which interests us here most is obviously the construction of ships, be it civil or military. Germany had already a deep tradition in seafare, those who (like me) witnessed the mentality reigning in Germany in the 60s know very well that the term "Übersee" (overseas) had a "magic" meaning for millions of Germans, just like "Kolonialwaren" (items coming from the former colonies or others nation's colonies). This is important to underline the importance of shipbuilding in Germany in those times: It employed hundreds of thousand of workers directly and millions indirectly, through the supplying chain.

This was one point present in most negotiations with neighbouring countries, mostly with the Netherlands. As said some pages back, many ships were ordered by the "Deutsche Kriegsmarine" in Dutch shipyards, especially after the "Amsterdam Treaty" was put on the table and signed. The "NV Ingenieurskantoor voor Scheepsbouw" (Dutch: engineer-office for shipbuilding), usually contracted to IvS, was a Dutch dummy company set up in The Hague and funded by the Reichsmarine after World War I in order to maintain and develop German submarine know-how and to circumvent the limitations set by the Treaty of Versailles. In fact it was a joint venture by the German shipyards AG Vulcan Stettin (located in Stettin and Hamburg), the Krupp-owned Germaniawerft in Kiel, and AG Weser in Bremen.

From 1927 to 1933 four IvS-designed submarines were built by Crichton-Vulcan Oy in Turku, Finland. One of these, CV 707 (later the Finnish Navy Vesikko), was the prototype of the German Type II submarine, while three larger Vetehinen-class submarines served as the prototypes for the Type VII. A fifth IvS design was the small submarine Saukko, built in Helsinki by the Sandvikens Skeppsdocka och Mekaniska Verkstad shipyard, and originally planned to be deployed in Lake Ladoga. The contracts were worded in such a way that IvS employees (many of whom were former Kaiserliche Marine and Reichsmarine personnel) were involved with crew training and selection, and were also allowed to take part in submarine service trials. The Germans - who were, at the time, tightly restricted from using submarines themselves - thus gained first-hand knowledge of how their prototypes worked in practice.

The IvS was also involved in designing plans for a Royal Netherlands Navy project to build battlecruisers (Design 1047, also known as Project 1047). Battlecruisers were deemed by some to be essential for the defense of the Dutch East Indies against possible Japanese expansion (and more so after the Japanese invasion of Manchuria in 1931), especially as the Netherlands lacked any large surface ships . The designs were heavily influenced by the German Scharnhorst class and the final design was similar to the IvS design, because the Germans were expected to at least furnish the gun turrets for these ships, as constructing them was beyond Dutch capabilities. After a recommendation from high-ranking Dutch naval officers that the Koninklijke Marine (Royal Netherlands Navy) be bolstered so any attacker would have to deploy a significant amount of their fleet to the East Indies, keeping it from other theaters of war, the Minister of Defense ordered the Navy to prepare designs for a two or three-member class of battlecruisers. As they had not previously designed a modern capital ship, and the only information available on modern designs came from public literature, the Dutch turned to Germany. While under Hitler no interest was shown, after 1935 Germany and the Netherlands were eventually able to reach an agreement where Germany would release plans and drawings based upon their ideas for a battlecruiser, in return for a guarantee that all needed equipment not possible to be produced by Dutch companies would be ordered from German firms. With their assistance (mainly through NV Ingenieurskantoor voor Scheepsbouw), a rough design was formulated by February 1936. (based on Wikipedia)

This part of reality is vital to show the further development of "my AU Deutsche Kriegsmarine" and further consequences.


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 27th, 2020, 10:38 pm
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No, I just altered Maomatics work as allowed, and added my name to the credit line as required.


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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 28th, 2020, 1:16 am
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First impressions of the "Leipzig Ersatz-Klasse" as required about 1938 taking into account the huge developments that were in that time being made on the level of electronics, mainly radar and its importance in detection as well as in fire guidance. Weapons and electronic parts as built and not as planned some years earlier...

[ img ]

This new class was intended to withstand all types of foul weather and sea conditions. Six ships were ordered to be delivered between 1943 and 1947 and, in agreement with the Royal Navy and the US Coast Guard to the tasks of these robust ships during peacetime was not only to patrol the Atlantic in the northern hemisphere, but to assist as possible civil merchant and passenger ships on voyage in this area, should any one get in difficulty.


Last edited by Cargil48 on August 28th, 2020, 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ultraking101
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 28th, 2020, 3:14 am
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Cargil48 wrote: *
First impressions of the "Leipzig Ersatz-Klasse" as required about 1938 taking into account the huge developments that were in that time being made on the level of electronics, mainly radar and its importance in detection as well as in fire guidance. Weapons and electronic parts as built and not as planned some years earlier...

Loa: +- 180m
Beam: 18,4m
Draft: 7,2m

[ img ]

This new class was intended to withstand all types of foul weather and sea conditions. Six ships were ordered to be delivered between 1943 and 1947 and, in agreement with the Royal Navy and the US Coast Guard to the tasks of these robust ships during peacetime was not only to patrol the Atlantic in the northern hemisphere, but to assist as possible civil merchant and passenger ships on voyage in this area, should any one get in difficulty.

Edit: Task nr. 1 will be to place the shafts and the screws lower...
Hey Cargil, I’ve seen that you have an account on the shipbucket discord, we can help you in the designs and details of your AU German ships much faster there then here in the forum itself.

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 28th, 2020, 10:45 am
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Thanks, but I like to see the comments here, with the drawing in front of me. This way others can also see if there is any mistake to avoid them making it themselves eventually. Besides that I don't needany "help" for drawing, but comments yes, as many as there may come... Nevertheless thanks for the tip.

Btw: You could do me a favor, edit your post and remove the tag for the picture, because it is not anymore the most actual one. I keep slowly my own upload actualized when I add something new. Thanks.


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