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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 28th, 2020, 5:44 pm
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Love the new design...can't wait to see the finished product!

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 28th, 2020, 6:05 pm
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emperor_andreas wrote: *
Love the new design...can't wait to see the finished product!
Thanks, Andreas. But I'd like to hear more from you... What do you think of the design itself? Does it fit into the era (mid-40s)? I changed the armament, because initially there was too little AA artillery. How now? And... have you been reading the story in which "my ships" fit into? I love ships, but I love to read (or to write) about their background stories... otherwise... it's just another ship more in SB... Or am I wrong?

And don't look at the ship in Ultraking's short comment. He quoted the entire post of mine and there is a version of the ship which is not actual. Look at my post above it, there is the latest update I made so far.


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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 29th, 2020, 1:19 am
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I agree about writing...I love writing back stories as well. The design is great...the large funnel really gives the class a distinctive feature, and I think that some smaller AA will really flush out the design.

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 30th, 2020, 4:59 pm
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What was (in my AU) the real situation of the "Deutsche Kriegsmarine" as of mid 1939? The already referred AGNA had been signed in late 1937 with the UK, in effect throwing the limitations written down in the Treaty of Versailles to the paper basket. However, the new government of the Prussian generals under the leadership of gen. Erwin von Witzleben, had to allocate the then scarse financial ressources into multiple tasks, although his government quickly got a general level of trust from the part of most European countries, and von Witzleben got several long term loans even from the part of the USA, especially when a German delegation visited Washington in the summer of 1938 and discussed with the top American leaders the tension in Europe (Spanish civil war and the open back-up from the part of the Soviets to the Republicans) but also the tensions mounting rapidly in the Western Pacific, led by the imperialism of the Empire of Japan, as well as the recent happenings inside the USSR, of which both the German and the US embassies in Moscow got detailed information, mainly supplied by desperate Russian military.

The purpose of the German diplomats present in Washington was to try to find out the thoughts of President Roosevelt should one or even both of the named nations start a real expansionist politic hostile to its neighbours. The Germans were openhearted in admitting that the treaties Germany had signed with several neighbouring countires were primarily based on the economic exchange, but... with all those countries secret talks had also taken place regarding the Soviet threat. With Finland, the Baltic States, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria and the Netherlands real documents were even undersigned, granting mutual assistance should one of them be attacked. The Germans in the Washington meeting wanted to know what their American counterparts thought of the political situation, especially if the Soviet Union should become aggressive, as more than one diplomat present in embassies in Moscow feared, and with solid reasons for that.

After two months President Roosevelt let the German government know that should a global threat on the part of the Soviets materialize in terms of a military action started by them, the European nations could count on deliveries of raw materials from the part of the USA (oil, rubber, iron ore, copper, zinc, aluminium and agricultural products mainly) and the US would grant their European counterparts financial facilities. But a direct military involvement, or even deliveries of war material, would not occur.

With this assurance, von Witzleben's government took the action of establishing a real plan of re-militarization, including talks with its European partners about this occurance, trying to get them to participate with discrecion into this effort. The German Army ("Wehrmacht") had to be completely reorganized and first of all mecanized with trucks of all sort and mainly artillery both on lafettes as well as on chain driven vehicles ("Panzer"). No one knew that the German armament industry was already working in this direction since early 1937...

This is important to know and to understand the further development of this "story", although with focus on the naval side.

[ img ]


Last edited by Cargil48 on September 2nd, 2020, 11:40 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 30th, 2020, 10:46 pm
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One of the warships where one can see how fast in those days the design evolved are the Deutschland class heavy cruisers. I take some lines of Wikipedia just to put the ship in context, as well as a drawing of two SB members (because better it could not be done and as I think you all know my main goal is the context these ships were built for and where do did they fit into my AU.

"The Deutschland class was a series of three "Panzerschiffe" (armored ships), a form of heavily armored cruiser, built by the Reichsmarine officially in accordance with restrictions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. The ships of the class, Deutschland, Admiral Scheer and Admiral Graf Spee, were all stated to displace 10,000 long tons (10,000 t) in accordance with the Treaty, though they actually displaced 10,770 to 12,540 t at standard displacement. Despite violating the weight limit, the design for the ships incorporated several radical innovations to save weight. They were the first major warships to use welding and all-diesel propulsion. Due to their heavy armament of six 28 cm guns and lighter weight, the British began referring to the vessels as "pocket battleships". The Deutschland-class ships were initially classified as "Panzerschiffe" but the Kriegsmarine reclassified them as heavy cruisers in February 1940.

The three ships were built between 1929 and 1936 by the Deutsche Werke in Kiel and the Reichsmarinewerft in Wilhelmshaven. Actual design work on the new type of armored ship began in 1923, but the German economy collapsed in 1924, forcing a temporary halt to the work. Admiral Hans Zenker, the commander in chief of the Reichsmarine, pushed hard for the navy to resume design work, and in 1925 three new proposals were drafted, in addition to two sketches prepared in 1923. The Reichsmarine held a conference to evaluate the designs in May 1925, though the results were inconclusive. The initial design for Deutschland, ordered as "Panzerschiff A", was then prepared in 1926 and finalized by 1928. The Reichsmarine had decided that the new ships would be armed with two triple turrets mounting 28 cm guns.

Political opposition to the new ships was significant. The Reichsmarine therefore decided to delay ordering the ship until after the Reichstag elections in 1928. The question over whether to build the new ships was a major issue in elections, particularly with the Social Democrats, who strongly opposed the new ships and campaigned with the slogan "Food not Panzerkreuzer." In May 1928, the elections were concluded and enough of a majority in favor of the new ships was elected; the first of the new ships was authorized in November 1928."

Five years spent for deciding if the ships were to be built or not and if yes, which concept should be choosen. Really, after the defeat in WWI some years before, noone in Germany ever thought of the posibility these ships could serve in another and even deadlier war... I mention this here to show why these ships were built and commissioned throughout the 30s but in reality they were conce3ived with the tecnology of the 20s, although they had two major innovations: they were welded instead of the traditional riveting, which by itself represented a weight saving of some 15%! Then, they were the first big ships with an all-Diesel propulsion, as the records say another significant factor for weight saving. The engines were four sets of 9-cylinder, double-acting, two-stroke diesel engines built by MAN and paired by two on two shafts driving screws with 4,4 meter in diameter. Total power output were 53.260 shp, allowing the ships to reach top speeds slightly under 30 knots. Electricity (220V) was supplied by four electric generators powered by two diesel engines. Due to the all-Diesel propulsion, the range of these ships averaged 10.000 nautical miles at a speed of 20 knots.

The dimensions of these ships were 181,7m x 21,6m x 7,25m at full load (5,80 standard draft). The displacement, as said above, varied between 10.800 t and 12.540t at standard weight. At full load the displacement increased on all three ships by some 4.000 tons on average.

[ img ]

"Deutschland's primary armament was six 28 cm SK C/28 guns mounted in two triple gun turrets, one forward and one aft of the superstructure. The ship carried a secondary battery of eight 15 cm SK C/28 guns in single turrets grouped amidships. Her anti-aircraft battery originally consisted of three 8.8 cm ("acht-acht") L/45 guns, though in 1935 these were replaced with six 8.8 cm L/78 guns. In 1940, the 8.8 cm guns were removed, and six 10.5 cm L/65 guns, four 3.7 cm guns, and ten 2 cm guns were installed in their place."

So far to the real history of "Panzerkreuzer DKM Deutschland". Next comes a theme, regarding "Deutschland", which puzzles me a lot...

Edit: Mystery solved... "Deutschland" and her two sisterships had different front superstructures and conning towers. "Deutschland" had a round shaped bridge and main mast, "Admiral Scheer" and "Graf Spee" completely different pyramid shaped conning towers and lower superstructure.

[ img ]

As the design above correctly shows.

Now one of her sister ships:

[ img ]

This puzzles me indeed.


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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 31st, 2020, 2:58 pm
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Please, please, should you answer to this don't use the "quote" button, otherwise you upload the entire long post...


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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 31st, 2020, 6:55 pm
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DKM Deutschland spent the first three years in sea trials mainly in the North Sea and in the Baltic, visiting several major ports, except for some four periods during which the situation in Germany was very unstable, when the nazis under Karl Dönitz and a group of "nazi strong men" nearly reconquered power for the party. In 1939 she underwent her first major refit, during which improvements in the Diesel engines were made (new high pressure fuel pumps and new high precision fuel injectors) and a new so-called "Atlantic bow" was fitted to allow the ship to better cope with the high seas of the Northern Atlantic and of the North Sea. Also the first radar sets were installed for detection of ennemy ships and airplanes and new communication lines between the ship's combat command room and the different outside stations were installed.

In 1943 she underwent another refit, where this time the stern was slightly redone and mainly a new rudder was installed. The big novelty was however the installation of a new type of radar displays which allowed a more accurate view of the targets. DKM "Deutschland" was in 1944 the first German ship which underwent trials with ship launched missiles (catapult launched V1 B and the new "Alpenrose" ship to ship radio controlled missile).

[ img ]


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: September 1st, 2020, 1:22 am
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The Maomatic/Krakatoa Deutschland class drawing you are using is from my Dual Purpose Kriegsmarine series. The secondary armament would be 10x5" DP guns in single mountings.


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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: September 1st, 2020, 11:38 am
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A missile-equipped Panzerschiffe? Awesome!

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: September 1st, 2020, 1:13 pm
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emperor_andreas wrote: *
A missile-equipped Panzerschiffe? Awesome!
Andreas, the nazis had the idea to launch rockets from ships, but since they'd be vertically launched, the overall lack of stability made that impossible. They tried "The Dome" instead... or "La Coupole", as the French say, in whose territory that thing was constructed. So, when tecnology got ripe enough for smaller items to be launched, I thought of the first trials being made on "Deutschland", in 1944. The V1-B should have been tried out, but a longer and stronger catapult than initially planned would have to be installed to get the necessary speed to make its engine work properly. So the "Deutschland" was (in my AU, obviously) used for the first trials of what we call now missiles, the first one being the "Alpenrose", first launched vertically and then, step by step, from angled launching platforms.

The triple mounted launching platform for "Alpenrose" and "Stieglitz" missiles, the first two ones to be succesfully developed to be launched from a ship. The first one with a range of 35 km, the second one 60 km. Both had a magnetic sensor mounted on a two axis moveable device (left/right and up/down). After being launched from the platform on the ship they were initially guided by radio control to get the correct heading to the target. Then, getting closer to the target, the magnetic impulse sensor took over and it was linked by thin wires to the missile's fins, correcting the trajectory to where the magnetic signal came from.

[ img ]

Here is a drawing of "my" Stieglitz missile, a design sort of a very small V2 rocket, initially with a 120 kg explosive device inside a tungsten hardened shell to be able to penetrate up to 10 cm thick armour plates. Alpenrose was a smaller rocket with an 80 kg explosive warhead and a shorter range. Both missiles were developed by the same team which had developed the "Fritz X" "Ruhrstahl SD 1400 X" in the years 1941 to 1943 and were built in license by (AU) "Lindau-Bodensee-Werke".

[ img ]

This was only an intermediate comment to detail a bit what kind of importance "Deutschland" had in the DKM and why (in AU...) it is being preserved as a museum ship at Kiel and still participates in more important sea parades.


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