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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: Second World War Aircraft Carrier ChallengePosted: August 1st, 2020, 1:05 pm
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Vossiej wrote: *
Don't forget to add the artist's name (both DG-Alpha and yourself) to the drawing!

Also, there seem to be some coloring issues near the bridge, mainly around the railings.
Thank you, Vossie! Changes done! Man, oh man... when this morning I saw what I had uploaded yesterday evening, I felt ashame, so many mistakes I found were still on the design... I was convinced this AU design was ready and uploaded it, but then I saw more in detail what was wrong and it took me three hours now to try to correct all!

Main changes: The air fleet, the stern part, lack of refrigeration openings for the engine rooms as well as for the air conditioning compartments, another pair of anchors for anchoring safely in foul weather conditions... and some new shading of the hull. Ah, and the visual approach light poles at the beginning of the landing deck. Also the position of the rearmost radar "frame" ("Matratze" in German...) I changed it since it is fixed and pointed in line with the ship's centre line to track incoming airplanes and serves as back-up to the longer range parabolic unit mounted aft of the funnel, on top of the deck operation rooms, should something get wrong with this latter.
Regarding this radar frame, it looks too close to the quadruple AA guns but it should be said that this is only from the viewing perspective. The frame is fixed at the centre of the stern pointing rearwards and the two quadruple AA stations are mounted on both sides of the open stern, each one aiming only to its own side of the ship's hull, port or starboard.

Please feel free to make more comments, Vossie! I thank you for them, especially if it is to change errors.

Cheers,
Cargil

PS: And I appologize to all for having uploaded first a design which was after all not complete! Lesson learned...


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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: Second World War Aircraft Carrier ChallengePosted: August 3rd, 2020, 2:44 pm
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"matedow" wrote in the previous page:

«Hancock-class CVL Conversion

The armored cruiser Tolland was moored in Pearl Harbor on 7 December where she took two torpedoes and sunk to the bottom with her main deck exposed. She was raised and towed to the Puget Sound NSY for permanent repairs. Upon arrival it was decided to convert her to a light carrier with the mission of supporting amphibious operations. (...)»

Looking at one of the comments to his drawings, I went to see the Independent class carriers and made a project of my own, thanking in advance "matedow" for using for a start his concept and his idea. Many, many changes have however been done by me, mainly the final destination of the ship: The US government decided 1942 to make a "lend and lease" agreement with Germany, to add this new CVL to the Pacific fleet of the DKM, then operating in Pacific waters north of the equator as an US ally. Why, it will be said later on. Now, let's present the ship the way as I saw it.

Main changes: The bow. When it was decided to convert the sunken cruiser into a CVL and to lend-lease it to Germany, this country sent to the US shipyards a couple of dozens of technicians to assist the US design bureau to make the blueprints according to the wishes of the German KM. Having the experience in submarines and also in very rough seas like they occur in the Northern Atlantic, the Germans had years before developed the "Atlantic bow" for their ships for trying to reduce the spray or even incoming water from the waves. Looking at the bow of the initial cruiser, with a vertical sharp edged "water slicing bow", the Germans had the idea of suggesting their US counterparts to add on both sides of the underwater part of the bow a slightly bulbuous and convex shaped part, more or less with the form of a dolphin... Not more than some 70 to 80cm on each side so as to give some buoyancy but little resistance. The forward part should remain exactly as it was originally, somehow ressembling the forward part of a submarine of that era only straight shaped as it was and not inclined. Another change the Germans asked for was to make an enclosed bow with the upper deck closing laterally with the ship's hull, a big change since it implied to match a rectangular shaped front part of the runway with a streamlined shaped bow of the original cruiser. Nothing the American naval engineers didn't know, but an arduous piece of work nonetheless. The success the Germans had so far had on the operational side of the Northern Pacific (it will be described later in the AU thread I started in the AU thread) led the US government to allow these changes. They would greatly improve the ship's airborne launching capability, improve internal hangar spaces and it would allow the ship to fulfill its role with more efficiency.

The only item the Germans asked for, on the technical side, was the ship to be equipped with AA gunnery of German production for reasons of metrics but also for compatibility with the ships of the rest of the fleet deployed in the Pacific. The airplanes (two enlarged squadrons with a total of 28 Ju 87 Stuka dive bombers - plus three disassembled units for reserve - and another two Staffel with 26 Focke-Wulf 190 A4-T fighters to escort the Stukas - plus another three disassembled as reserve) would also be supplied by Germany. Both aiplane types were of the newest variant (1943), having mainly more powerful engines and better comm and nav radio equipment. They obviously were "navalized" to be launched by catapult and to land using arresting hooks, as usual.

[ img ]

The general characteristics are very similar to the ship matedow put up here:

Length 642 ft (195,12m), width of the hull 79 ft (24,08m), max. width with overhangs 92 feet (28m), max draught 27,57ft (8,4m)
Displacement combat ready: 22,235 tons

Machinery: 4 (new) G&E steam turbines driving four shafts, producing a total of 100.000 shp, eight (new) B&W boilers, two diesel power generators for electricity and hydraulics. Max. speed 28,87 knots.

Two steam driven aircraft launching catapults.

Complement: 1.185 total, including the air wing and maintenance personnel

Sensors: US made radar units for general aerial survey, one unit for surface scanning (and/or navigation) and one unit serving as approach guidance for the incoming airplanes with altitude indication. One omni-directional beam to guide the airplanes home (range 42km), ship-to-ship voice radio, ship-to-aiplane comm, sonar in the bow.

The drawing here depicts the ship still with US flag being tested by the German crews. After signing the respective land & lease contract, the ship was christened "DKM "Nashville" at Pear Harbor and served in Germany's Pacific fleet until 1956, assisting actively the USA also in the Korean war, then with completely different planes


Last edited by Cargil48 on August 6th, 2020, 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: Second World War Aircraft Carrier ChallengePosted: August 4th, 2020, 1:24 am
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Awesome work!

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: Second World War Aircraft Carrier ChallengePosted: August 4th, 2020, 10:23 am
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emperor_andreas wrote: *
Awesome work!
Thanks! Believe me when I say that the many drawings I've been making throughout time mainly regarding warships of the WWII era have taught me a lot of things! Not only on the technical side (hulls, propulsions, armament, air fleets carried, radars on the side of each nation, etc., etc.) but also regarding the theatres of operations they were involved in. That's why I opened a new thread about a AU of WWII to get more in detail about these aspects, which are and will continue to be historical.


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erik_t
Post subject: Re: Second World War Aircraft Carrier ChallengePosted: August 4th, 2020, 10:23 pm
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Two heavy heightfinders for a CVL is major overkill.


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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: Second World War Aircraft Carrier ChallengePosted: August 4th, 2020, 10:28 pm
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erik_t wrote: *
Two heavy heightfinders for a CVL is major overkill.
Since one is facing forward and the other one backwards, complementing each other in an 360º arc, could you please explain your comment?


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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: Second World War Aircraft Carrier ChallengePosted: August 5th, 2020, 5:40 pm
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Quote:
Sensors: US made radar units for general aerial survey, one unit for surface scanning (and/or navigation) and one unit serving as approach guidance for the incoming airplanes with altitude indication. One omni-directional beam to guide the airplanes home (range 42km), ship-to-ship voice radio, ship-to-aiplane comm, sonar in the bow.
I have a few comments here:

1. I agree with Erik that two SM heightfinders are overkill and not very realistic for this ship - SM was a heavy and complex installation and the real life CVLs did not receive these sets until late in the war as more became available (they were initially prioritized for the large fleet carriers)
2. Carriers of the time did not to my knowledge have radar-assisted approach guidance for aircraft - the SG, SK, and SM sets in your drawing were used for search (SG for surface search and navigation, SK for air search, and SM for heightfinding of air targets).
3. Bow sonar is not necessary for aircraft carriers of this period as destroyers will be used for ASW
4. I would remove the SM from above the pilot house and relocate the after SM tower to a position between the funnels (this will require some modification of the folding antenna masts)
5. Once you move that SM, you can then relocate the YG homing beacon to the position above the pilot house to achieve some separation between YE (at the mast head) and YG above pilot house.

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BB1987
Post subject: Re: Second World War Aircraft Carrier ChallengePosted: August 5th, 2020, 6:57 pm
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KnK Tobiuo:

Tobiuo (Flying Fish) -along with her sister Ajisashi- was Koko's next step into quickly building a respectable carrier force in the years preceding WWII. Designed in parallel with the larger fleet carriers of the Umineko class, Tobiuo's design evoved from that of the preceding Ahodori. Tobiuo was longer, beamier, with a deeper draft, a bulbous bow and two full length hangars that would have allowed to carry (theoretically) up to 50 aircrafts (only achiavable through embarking a questionable airwing made just of Nakajima B5Ns). Tobiuo was officially budgeted as a submarine tender named Same (Shark) - like her sister Ajisashi was under the false name Tako (Octopus)- as to hide from enemy intelligence the true number of aicraft carriers Koko no Kaigun was building.
Built at Yamatogawa, Tobiuo was laid down in December 1937, launched in 1939 and commissioned in late January 1942.
Tobiuo was initially deployed to the Aleutians, then briefly to Singapore in May 1942 before returning north in late June. She then served in the Solomon theater between late 1942 and early 1944 before being recalled for upgrades to her electronincs, airplanes and armament. After that, she took part in multiple skirimishes and battles along the northern Hawaiian islands until her sinking at the hands of US carrier-aircrafts in September 1944.

[ img ]

Tobiuo specifications as commissioned (1942):

-Displacement: 14.964 t standard, 17.012 t full load
-Length, overall: 230,19m (756ft)
-Length, hull: 228,21m (749,50ft)
-Length, waterline: 223,03m (732,49ft)
-beam, maximum (outrigger platforms): 41,87m (137,51ft)
-beam, waterline: 19,94m (65,49ft)
-beam, hull: 20,80m (68,31ft)
-mean draft: 7,20m (23,65ft)
-Machinery: 8x Oil firing boilers, 4x geared steam turbines, 140.000 shp, 4 shafts
-Speed: 34 kts
-Range: 9.200nm at 14 kts
-Armour: deck 35mm (1.4''), magazines 70mm (2.7''), torpedo bulkhead 25mm (1'', protective internal bulge 1m on each side)
-Armament: 8x 127mm/40 DP guns (4x2, 400rpg), 30x 25mm/60 AA-MGs (10x3, 9.000rpg)
-Electronics: Standard RDF
-Complement: 956

[ img ]

Flight deck, hangar and airwing:

-Flight deck length: 227,91m (748,51ft)
-Flight deck width: 24,82m (81,52ft)
-Equipment: 6x arrestor wires, 2x crash barrers, 1x wind break
-Upper hangar: 151,7m (498,22ft) long, 14,1/18,3m (46,31/60,10ft) wide, 5,3m (17,41ft) tall
-Lower hangar: 150,1m (492,97ft) long, 12,6/15,4m (41,38/50,58ft) wide, 5,3m (17,41ft) tall
-Forward elevator: 12,03 x 13,55m (39,51 x 44,50ft)
-Aft elevator: 11,72 x 13,85 m (38,49 x 45,49ft)
-Airwing: 45+3 aircrafts (17+1 A6M fighters, 18+1 B5N torpedo bombers, 10+1 D3A dive bombers) - 45 operational + 3 disassembled spares on the lower hangar.

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Last edited by BB1987 on August 10th, 2020, 12:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: Second World War Aircraft Carrier ChallengePosted: August 6th, 2020, 12:20 am
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What is there to be said, regarding the project presented here by BB1987?? Never saw such a detailed work... Are your eyes still okay, amico mio??... :D

Edit: Is it me, or on the four turrets on the starboard side, those behind the funnel, the cannons are missing?


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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: Second World War Aircraft Carrier ChallengePosted: August 6th, 2020, 12:23 am
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Colosseum,

Thanks for your detailed remarks. I will got to them more in detail tomorrow, it's late now and I've been working for hours on the projects of my AU thread...


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