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Bigfoot
Post subject: "Mini Holland" frigatePosted: August 29th, 2021, 10:23 am
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Well, I have affection on Dutch-built ships, specifically those built during the Cold War years. While searching the archive for some drawings and tips to improve my drawing skills, I saw the Dutch Holland-class destroyers, which inspired me to do these series.

So the concept was a "mini-Holland" frigate, built at the same time as their larger sisters. Mission would be primarily anti-submarine warfare. Sensors suite, and to some extent, the armaments, is almost identical to the Hollands.

[ img ]

A version with Rb-08 anti-ship missiles:
[ img ]

And a "what-if" AAW conversion, which I thought was also proposed for the original Hollands:
[ img ]

I draw the ships myself, every pixel, using the amazing Holland drawing as the basis. I don't know if I have to credit the artist of that drawing coz I copied the propellers (yes, I still can't properly draw props :? ) and the sonar dome.

Your kind criticisms and comments will be so much appreciated, this would be used for an AU I've been preparing but I decided to post it earlier than the AU so I can improve my skills. Thanks!

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A Dutch Formosa AU

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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: "Mini Holland" frigatePosted: August 29th, 2021, 7:18 pm
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Hello! good to see I am not the only one who thinks the Dutch 1947 A and B class ships are amazing ships :P

These drawings are not bad at all, and on first glance they look like working designs. You just have the tiny bit of bad luck that I have researched the 1947 destroyers well and based on that I found some issues....... and I hope you won't take them as dishaertening, as the good work you have so far makes it worth my time to give these comments to improve them, or even to keep an eye on these issues in future designs ;)

You probably have found it already, but for reference, here is the thread where I commented on the design and development of the Holland class
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5275

First of all though, looks to me like you indeed redrew everything but the propellers and the sonar dome (and of course the other parts). These do count as parts, so indeed require no credits. Just a small word of caution: propellers are matched to the ship and the propulsion system, and these have smaller hulls and I suspect not the same powerplant as the Holland class, it can sometimes be a better choice to take the propellers of something more closely matching the size and propulsion plant of your ship then of the ship you started out with. In this case, that might be the Royal Navy Type 12 for example, I suspect. Does it really matter in shipbucket scale? not really in this case, but sometimes........

Anyways, my comments:

- By the single tall funnel I suspect you have roughly half a Holland plant of 45000 shp. (Either that or half a Friesland plant of 60000 shp) Depending on the exact arrangement, that would mean this ship would go about 25-26 knots in my estimation. IIRC, immidiately postwar, ASW frigates were the fast frigates so they could catch submarines that went close to 30 knots. If this is an ASW frigate primarely, is it fast enough?
- Speaking of the powerplant, I think you are missing the air intakes for the boilers. This is next to the forward funnel on the back end of the fore superstructure on the forward engine room of the 1947's and next to the aft funnel for the aft engine room.
- The Holland class destroyers are known to be extremely tight ships, evidenced by the amount of stuff they DIDN'T get over their design and development. When comparing the Friesland with the Holland, both starting out as the same design but with a slightly different hull because of different engines, the Friesland got almost everything the initial design had, while the Holland lost the Lichtraketwerper, 5 of the 6 40mm guns, the primary fire control system (leaving 2 directors on board of which the Friesland got 4 as secondary directors) and her main air search radar was dropped to the lowest acceptable level. Knowing this, we have to look at your design.....

1. You have half the powerplant of the Holland class
2. You have a smaller hull then the Holland class
3. You have the radars higher up then the Holland class
4. You have 1 40mm more then the Holland class
5. You have 1 ASW mortar less then the Holland class
6. You have the same FCS as the Holland class
7. You have torpedo tubes where the Holland has none
8. You have the same 120mm armament as the Holland class

It looks like you have more stuff, higher up, with less bouyancy, stability and weight down below to support it. In other words: somewhat unlikely that it would work. There are solutions though! Dropping the height of the radars a tad, removing the torpedo tubes, removing one of the main gun turrets, increasing hull size (Which might actually increase speed, believe it or not :P) or a combination of these all work towards resolving this issue.

- Tiny issue, but the sonar directly under the gun is an issue. The sonar has equipment on top of it (the dome is also retractable into the hull, the space it takes in the hull is on the part on the Dutch parts sheet here: http://67.205.157.234/wiki/index.php/Fi ... _sheet.png) while the gun also has a lot of deck penetration, with the magazine and ready use ammo under the waterline. There is space though to move it forwards in your design.
- I would really recommend having a blast shield around your ASW launcher.
- Those liferafts are a bit too modern for 1959, they would not come into use until the late 70's at the earliest.
- Do note that the Hollands were quite cramped for her crews. While removing half the engine plant will ease that up somewhat, making the ship smaller might offset that again. You also reduced the size of the deckhouses on the stern by quite a bit, so that further reduces space for the crew and everything a crew needs. All weapons and radars you have on board take as much or more crew then what the real life Holland got so you are definitely having a cramped crew, which will make these ships not that popular in service.
- Speaking of all the systems, do note that you have 95% (more or less) of the systems the Holland class had, a larger amount of separate systems, with less room in the ships structure to put their affiliated equipment. This will probably make these ships almost as expensive to build and operate as the Hollands, even if they have half the powerplant (The hollands often sailed with one of their boiler rooms sealed to reduce crew and maintenance in peacetime, an option you wouldn't really have). I would really recommend cutting back on that to reduce cost. Options would be dropping the torpedo tubes (not really useful for ASW), dropping the aft turret (making them less AA capable mostly), dropping the air search radar (making them unable to perform radar picket duty for aircraft)
- Adding to the above point, note that you have a ship that is more then 90% of the cost of an Holland class in my estimation but with far less of the survivability features, such as the split powerplant, secondary conning position etc. I would really recommend reducing the armament of these a bit and it could certainly work though!

Lastly, I want to add this http://shipbucket.com/drawings/3410, showing you the feasibility of the idea. This was not my best drawing ever (and it was a long time ago) but this ship is an proposal for an ship that was friesland derived but with an much lighter armament (3 single 40mm, fixed ASW torpedo tubes, 1 quadrupple ASW mortar, dual 120mm) designed for export.

Keep going, and looking forward to more of your work (or updates of this one)!

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I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.


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Bigfoot
Post subject: Re: "Mini Holland" frigatePosted: August 29th, 2021, 10:05 pm
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acelanceloet wrote: *
Hello! good to see I am not the only one who thinks the Dutch 1947 A and B class ships are amazing ships :P

These drawings are not bad at all, and on first glance they look like working designs. You just have the tiny bit of bad luck that I have researched the 1947 destroyers well and based on that I found some issues....... and I hope you won't take them as dishaertening, as the good work you have so far makes it worth my time to give these comments to improve them, or even to keep an eye on these issues in future designs ;)

You probably have found it already, but for reference, here is the thread where I commented on the design and development of the Holland class
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5275

First of all though, looks to me like you indeed redrew everything but the propellers and the sonar dome (and of course the other parts). These do count as parts, so indeed require no credits. Just a small word of caution: propellers are matched to the ship and the propulsion system, and these have smaller hulls and I suspect not the same powerplant as the Holland class, it can sometimes be a better choice to take the propellers of something more closely matching the size and propulsion plant of your ship then of the ship you started out with. In this case, that might be the Royal Navy Type 12 for example, I suspect. Does it really matter in shipbucket scale? not really in this case, but sometimes........

Anyways, my comments:

- By the single tall funnel I suspect you have roughly half a Holland plant of 45000 shp. (Either that or half a Friesland plant of 60000 shp) Depending on the exact arrangement, that would mean this ship would go about 25-26 knots in my estimation. IIRC, immidiately postwar, ASW frigates were the fast frigates so they could catch submarines that went close to 30 knots. If this is an ASW frigate primarely, is it fast enough?
- Speaking of the powerplant, I think you are missing the air intakes for the boilers. This is next to the forward funnel on the back end of the fore superstructure on the forward engine room of the 1947's and next to the aft funnel for the aft engine room.
- The Holland class destroyers are known to be extremely tight ships, evidenced by the amount of stuff they DIDN'T get over their design and development. When comparing the Friesland with the Holland, both starting out as the same design but with a slightly different hull because of different engines, the Friesland got almost everything the initial design had, while the Holland lost the Lichtraketwerper, 5 of the 6 40mm guns, the primary fire control system (leaving 2 directors on board of which the Friesland got 4 as secondary directors) and her main air search radar was dropped to the lowest acceptable level. Knowing this, we have to look at your design.....

1. You have half the powerplant of the Holland class
2. You have a smaller hull then the Holland class
3. You have the radars higher up then the Holland class
4. You have 1 40mm more then the Holland class
5. You have 1 ASW mortar less then the Holland class
6. You have the same FCS as the Holland class
7. You have torpedo tubes where the Holland has none
8. You have the same 120mm armament as the Holland class

It looks like you have more stuff, higher up, with less bouyancy, stability and weight down below to support it. In other words: somewhat unlikely that it would work. There are solutions though! Dropping the height of the radars a tad, removing the torpedo tubes, removing one of the main gun turrets, increasing hull size (Which might actually increase speed, believe it or not :P) or a combination of these all work towards resolving this issue.

- Tiny issue, but the sonar directly under the gun is an issue. The sonar has equipment on top of it (the dome is also retractable into the hull, the space it takes in the hull is on the part on the Dutch parts sheet here: http://67.205.157.234/wiki/index.php/Fi ... _sheet.png) while the gun also has a lot of deck penetration, with the magazine and ready use ammo under the waterline. There is space though to move it forwards in your design.
- I would really recommend having a blast shield around your ASW launcher.
- Those liferafts are a bit too modern for 1959, they would not come into use until the late 70's at the earliest.
- Do note that the Hollands were quite cramped for her crews. While removing half the engine plant will ease that up somewhat, making the ship smaller might offset that again. You also reduced the size of the deckhouses on the stern by quite a bit, so that further reduces space for the crew and everything a crew needs. All weapons and radars you have on board take as much or more crew then what the real life Holland got so you are definitely having a cramped crew, which will make these ships not that popular in service.
- Speaking of all the systems, do note that you have 95% (more or less) of the systems the Holland class had, a larger amount of separate systems, with less room in the ships structure to put their affiliated equipment. This will probably make these ships almost as expensive to build and operate as the Hollands, even if they have half the powerplant (The hollands often sailed with one of their boiler rooms sealed to reduce crew and maintenance in peacetime, an option you wouldn't really have). I would really recommend cutting back on that to reduce cost. Options would be dropping the torpedo tubes (not really useful for ASW), dropping the aft turret (making them less AA capable mostly), dropping the air search radar (making them unable to perform radar picket duty for aircraft)
- Adding to the above point, note that you have a ship that is more then 90% of the cost of an Holland class in my estimation but with far less of the survivability features, such as the split powerplant, secondary conning position etc. I would really recommend reducing the armament of these a bit and it could certainly work though!

Lastly, I want to add this http://shipbucket.com/drawings/3410, showing you the feasibility of the idea. This was not my best drawing ever (and it was a long time ago) but this ship is an proposal for an ship that was friesland derived but with an much lighter armament (3 single 40mm, fixed ASW torpedo tubes, 1 quadrupple ASW mortar, dual 120mm) designed for export.

Keep going, and looking forward to more of your work (or updates of this one)!
Hello, thanks for the kind criticisms. My bad, I tried to cramp as much as equipment on a tightened hull, which defeats my purpose of designing a smaller and less expensive "mini-Holland". Anyways, I'm really enlightened so I will now work to improve them.

I'd like to ask some few more questions before working out on your suggestions:
1. Is redesigning the funnel an option? I still don't have sufficient knowledge on engines and boilers, but since it is a different ship, I could probably use a different propulsion system, of course cheaper than the Holland.

2. If I would reduce the sensors, what will be better to give up, the LW-01 or the DA-01?

3. I do want to retain the current length of the ship, is slightly tweaking the height of the masts and the hull will bring some sort of "balance" to the ship?

4. Is there any available parts sheets for boats for this era?

Thanks for the interest in my work, sir!

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A Dutch Formosa AU

"Il vaut mieux faire que dire." -Alfred de Musset


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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: "Mini Holland" frigatePosted: August 29th, 2021, 10:13 pm
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1. Well, having half a Friesland plant would not be bad, look at the Royal Navy Type 12 frigates, or even the slightly later Leanders which had basically that. The Type 12 were quite a bit lighter IIRC, so could reach higher speeds on that power. It all boils back to what does the ship need to do, and what does it need to have to do that.
2. Looking at the german Köln class, in this situation the DA would be what you want to keep.
3. With tweaking you can certainly get the ship to be stable. A larger beam increases stability but also increases drag, for example. But if we look again at the Type 12, or at the never build frigate I linked, you can see that with less height of the masts and the radars on it and less weight of weapon systems, the shorter, lighter hull can work.
4. Like this? http://shipbucket.com/wiki/index.php/Ca ... mall_boats

EDIT:
Also I just remembered I had this. Not the real 1947, but a personal design deriviation (I went bigger instead of smaller) that gives an idea of the stuff that goes into the hull and superstructure. http://shipbucket.com/wiki/index.php/DDL_1947C_class

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Drawings are credited with J.Scholtens
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heuhen
Post subject: Re: "Mini Holland" frigatePosted: August 29th, 2021, 11:14 pm
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Let me add an another one, that look quite similar to this...

the design and build era, is similar to Oslo class frigates, with somewhat similar size (some are just under 100 meter).

Oslo class could sprint up in above 30 knots with "combat" propellers, but was limited to under 25 knots on "economy" propeller and boiler issue.
- light weight AAW radar (somewhat)
- 2 x twin 3" guns
- 20 mm in wing position on bridge deck (later moved)
- 2 US triple torpedo tubes for light weight.
- and a ASW weapon (Norway used Terne)
- a 120 crew
- 2,134 t (fully loaded)
- 96.6 meter
- 20.080 hp (single shaft) (limited to bellow 25 knots, due to boiler wear)


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Bigfoot
Post subject: Re: "Mini Holland" frigatePosted: August 30th, 2021, 8:36 am
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Thank you sir acelanceloet and heuhen for the very valuable insights, it is really helpful, most especially the guides on how to make my design "work"

So here's an attempt to improve the aka mini-Hollands:

[ img ]

What are the things that I did:
1. Propulsion- instead of going into a one funnel design, I decided to modify her to have two funnels instead, albeit smaller than the funnels I have earlier. I don't really know if this configuration gonna give her sufficient power to perform ASW duties, but aside from making the ship more survivable, my impression is that she is more aesthetically pleasing with two funnels. Propellers were retained.

2. Armaments- reduced the weapons to a single 120mm, some Bofors 40mm anti-aircraft guns, and a Lichtraketwerper in place of the aft 120mm. Torpedo tubes also ditched. I hope that this weapon configuration will give her sufficient anti-submarine punch, hopefully :P

3. Sensors- Removed the LW-02 radar and the second mast to "save weight", moreover, as an ASW ship, i think the DA is enough. Repositioned the ZW radar. Moved the sonar dome more forward as suggested.

4. Minor tweaks- lowered the main mast, added the blast shields for the ASW rocket launchers, minor adjustments on dimensions, "air intakes", and a more "suitable" life raft.

Also, I decided not to proceed with the AAW configuration like the former :D I realized that I am giving a little hull too much :lol: Anyways, I'm retaining former drawings for myself to see my improvements!

Thanks for the help guys, I do appreciate it! Again I'm still open for criticisms so I could further improve this one!

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A Dutch Formosa AU

"Il vaut mieux faire que dire." -Alfred de Musset


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