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1143M
Post subject: Re: Stealth Corvette (sort of Visby style)Posted: March 15th, 2017, 3:27 am
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Rodondo wrote: *
I'm not aware of the Saar V being drastically overweight, slightly maybe but nothing too concerning. I assume Heuhen you are going with a lightweight topsides of composite or aluminium construction? It's weapon load-out doesn't weigh much more than what the Visby, I personally don't see much of a glaring issue.

If it were made of steel it'd be of a similar displacement to the Saar V actually
Visby just have 1x 57mm gun,8x RBS15 missile and 4x 400mm torpedo launchers ,what about your ship? Do you think the 6x VLS and Integrated fire control system very light?

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Rodondo
Post subject: Re: Stealth Corvette (sort of Visby style)Posted: March 15th, 2017, 3:41 am
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Of which the Visby was to carry, a 12 Cell VLS, plus the NSM is half the weight of the RBS15 (launcher is fairly light as well). The torpedoes could be whittled back though. The weight is not a real issue as it looks to be a composite ship

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Hood
Post subject: Re: Stealth Corvette (sort of Visby style)Posted: March 15th, 2017, 8:50 am
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Nice work Heuhen, looks a sound concept and the overall design looks pretty well thought out.
The armament is more than sufficient and not too much, which is good to see, and of course as a flex design you'll be carrying different loadouts rather than everything all at once.
The design on the right looks better to me. You sacrifice a decent helideck but an open space would be better than the enclosed RHIB bays on the version on the left for multi-role options but the left-hand design is probably superior for ASW roles.

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Stealth Corvette (sort of Visby style)Posted: March 15th, 2017, 11:21 am
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1143M wrote: *
Rodondo wrote: *
I'm not aware of the Saar V being drastically overweight, slightly maybe but nothing too concerning. I assume Heuhen you are going with a lightweight topsides of composite or aluminium construction? It's weapon load-out doesn't weigh much more than what the Visby, I personally don't see much of a glaring issue.

If it were made of steel it'd be of a similar displacement to the Saar V actually
Visby just have 1x 57mm gun,8x RBS15 missile and 4x 400mm torpedo launchers ,what about your ship? Do you think the 6x VLS and Integrated fire control system very light?
My entire ship is constructed in Composite, just like Visby class, and just like we did on Skjold class. The weapons weight is exactly the same if not less than a fully armed Visby class. And I have more underwater hull than Visby class, for one reason, to handle the Norwegian North Sea!


Visby have:
1 X 57mm gun
4 X 400 mm torpedoes
2 X 4 RBS15 Mk2 Anti ship missile
Mines and depth charges

Visby was to carry also a 12 cell VLS for Anti air Warfare and also two 6 barrel Anti submarine rocket launcher. But the Swedish Navy ran out of money, thus they had to cancel the last two equipment.

Compared to what I have:
1 X 57 mm gun (same as on Visby just not in the Stealth mount, mostly due to the stealth mount make the gun heavier and slower)
4 X 324 mm torpedo launcher (standard in the Norwegian Navy) (it is lighter than the 400 mm torpedo launcher, Visby class use)
2 X 4 NSM (Naval strike missile) (It is far lighter and more compact than the RBS15 Mk2, Visby class use)
1 X 6 cell Mk48 Mod 3 VLS (main reason for the Mk48, is because it's lighter than the Mk41) It is fewer launcher then what Visby class was going to carry, but Sweden ran out of money)


In fact Visby class:

- When fully armed, are more heavily armed than mine drawing...
- Visby class are a much lighter vessel than mine...
- Visby class have a smaller hull (over and under water) than mine, mine drawing is specifically drawn for the dangerous North sea, Visby is not
- I have far bigger Water line than Visby, but are shorter than Visby, due to that I do not have so big overhang than Visby class.


1. Israeli Sa'ar 5-class corvette: is build to operate in what we in Norway call protected water, that will say Operate in water that can get really bad.
2. Sail is for sail boat
3. Baltic sea... Norway do not operate in the Baltic sea, We operate in the North Atlantic and North sea. North sea is one of the most dangerous sea in the world and we Norwegians know how to handle it...
4. Tomozaurus was an WW1 era design build in the 30's with more armament than it was good for. and guns back then weight far more than they do, today. She was also under half the weight Visby or this design. The other problem with Tomozuru was that her metacentric weight was to high due to mounting to many big guns onboard. Modern big guns of same caliber today weight only 1/3 of those old guns... so yeah.



I have far more experience in this matter. I will listen to any critic, but when someone criticizes a drawing and use wrong information... well I can't help you.


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reytuerto
Post subject: Re: Stealth Corvette (sort of Visby style)Posted: March 15th, 2017, 6:25 pm
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Hi Heuhen:

I have so many questions, that I have many concerns about your patience :D !

May I ask if the manteinance of a composite vessel is more expensive (via-a-vis a vessel of a more conventional all metal construction)?

About the Skjold (I ask about it because I think that is a wonderful ship), I understand that is a "vessel for war"; but in other context, for example the patrolling area not in the North Cape or the North Atlantic, but a more confined sea, like the Mediterranean, for war operations and no OPV functions; do you think that is feasible that other navies (like Turkey, Greece with better economy, or Israel) can sellect the Skjold as backbone of the ligth forces?

About your "Visby for Norway", is feasible to put an hangar for the helicopter (at least an hangar for an helicopter of the size of a Lynx or Dauphin)? And what AA missile do you have in mind for that ship, a new one like the Sea Ceptor, or the well tried Sea Sparrow? And finaly (at last!) between the 76 mm Super Rapid of the Skjold and the 57 mm Bofors why you selected the last one? Thanks and cheers.


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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Stealth Corvette (sort of Visby style)Posted: March 15th, 2017, 10:45 pm
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reytuerto wrote: *
I have so many questions, that I have many concerns about your patience :D !
Don't worry, I am always crazy... I am after all Norwegian :lol:
Quote:
May I ask if the manteinance of a composite vessel is more expensive (via-a-vis a vessel of a more conventional all metal construction)?
Composite are after my understanding, easy to maintain. But on an Composite boat, you have other things to think about then a vessel in metal. you have to inspect the composite hull for any big damage, you don't want water to get in between the composite layers... just one of the things.
Quote:
About the Skjold (I ask about it because I think that is a wonderful ship), I understand that is a "vessel for war"; but in other context, for example the patrolling area not in the North Cape or the North Atlantic, but a more confined sea, like the Mediterranean, for war operations and no OPV functions; do you think that is feasible that other navies (like Turkey, Greece with better economy, or Israel) can sellect the Skjold as backbone of the ligth forces?
- Skjold class was designed to handle bad weather, without any problem.

- As just an patrol boat, she is overkill. She is mainly designed after the Cold war tactics, attack and destroy Soviet vessel, without getting detected. Basically she is designed to go after the big Russian missile cruisers... And that is quit over kill for an patrol ship.

- As an OPV, she would be to limited to that role. There are far better ship for that type of task.

- Light forces.... Skjold class is designed to support Heavy forces with an unique strike capability. For light forces you want small fast vessels with either 12.7mm or 20 mm guns and perhaps some sort of manpad.
Quote:
About your "Visby for Norway", is feasible to put an hangar for the helicopter (at least an hangar for an helicopter of the size of a Lynx or Dauphin)?
There not enough space for that, specially on this type of design.
Quote:
And what AA missile do you have in mind for that ship, a new one like the Sea Ceptor, or the well tried Sea Sparrow?
At the moment I have drawn here with Mk48, that give me ESSM (Sea Sparrow)
Quote:
And finaly (at last!) between the 76 mm Super Rapid of the Skjold and the 57 mm Bofors why you selected the last one?
Weight...

If you look at video of Skjold class on YouTube, you will notice, she look bow heavy when she move at low speed. But at speed it's not a problem for Skjold, due to the lifting fan build in the hull, compensate for the problem, but only when those fans are working. One of the Advantage of an SWAT-hull, it can compensate for overweight... but only if it is designed for that. Skjold class was originally designed for 57mm but they redesigned the SWAT hull and strengthened the deck, but also increased the vessel beam, just to carry that 76 mm gun.


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reytuerto
Post subject: Re: Stealth Corvette (sort of Visby style)Posted: March 16th, 2017, 11:48 am
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Thanks for your very complete answer!


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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Stealth Corvette (sort of Visby style)Posted: March 17th, 2017, 6:13 pm
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With Superboy Idea, I have done some adjustment, made the hull a little more clean, and sacrificed one of the illuminators.


This is the Corvette version, I do see the possibility for an patrol version with a smaller superstructure with a open flex/cargo deck
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citizen lambda
Post subject: Re: Stealth Corvette (sort of Visby style)Posted: March 18th, 2017, 8:50 am
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Hi Heuhen,

Nice work you have going on here!
I have a couple of questions on the corvette design though, but you may have taken them into account already:
- My main concern, which applies to the whole family: isn't the hull a bit high and narrow for stability at low speeds?
- How does the towed array interact with the jet wake? Do you have a maximum towing speed in mind?
- Is there enough space between the NSM bins to allow access between helipad and superstructure and servicing the helicopter? Maybe you can fit a service lift aft of the NSMs to bring stores and spares on the helipad from below?
- Is a single STIR enough for missile and gun control on the corvette variant? Does the I-Mast also handle missile designation?
- How are your torpedo tubes positioned, that you can fit them so close to the boat bays?

Overall a great drawing of a great design, as usual, otherwise I wouldn't bother nitpicking it like that!

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Stealth Corvette (sort of Visby style)Posted: March 18th, 2017, 9:36 am
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citizen lambda wrote: *
Hi Heuhen,

Nice work you have going on here!
I have a couple of questions on the corvette design though, but you may have taken them into account already:
Quote:
- My main concern, which applies to the whole family: isn't the hull a bit high and narrow for stability at low speeds?
It is on the high side, but I am not worried, due to that I have given the design a bigger hull under water to compensate. But also keeping the weight down, by have everything of the ship build in composite or similar. But things that are in the superstructure, far up is at bar minimum and only light equipment, Heavy equipment are keep far down in the superstructure.
Quote:
- How does the towed array interact with the jet wake? Do you have a maximum towing speed in mind?
Same as on Visby class. And as on many other ships with towed array.... There is an max speed
Quote:
- Is there enough space between the NSM bins to allow access between helipad and superstructure and servicing the helicopter? Maybe you can fit a service lift aft of the NSMs to bring stores and spares on the helipad from below?
Lift is an possibility, but things like an lift in the center of an flex deck, would reduce the flex deck capacity. But then this helipad is for landing, refueling and light arming. so the lift inside the superstructure in front of the NSM is big enough.

You would be walking there, when NSM is active. other than that the area is free to walk
Quote:
- Is a single STIR enough for missile and gun control on the corvette variant? Does the I-Mast also handle missile designation?
I am not entirely sure. but I think the I-mast can to some degree control weapons, but the STIR would have the main focus.
Quote:
- How are your torpedo tubes positioned, that you can fit them so close to the boat bays?
Short tubes at an angle. that can be angled in any direction.

The boat bays aren't that big, but the hatch is, due to cargo. flex deck.


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