Shipbucket
http://shipbucket.com/forums/

Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7759		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Krakatoa [ June 22nd, 2017, 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
Following on from the four ship Nassau class, the Germans go on to the four ships of the Helgoland class with 8x12", five Kaiser class (included a fleet flagship) with 10x12", and the four Konig class with 8x13.8".

[ img ]


The follow on Kaiser class were to be armed with 10x12", the 12" gun the Germans believed was superior to the British 12"/13.5" guns. Various layouts were studied before the triple aft layout was chosen.

[ img ]


The Germans finally upgraded to a gun that would be noticeably superior to the current British builds with their 13.5" guns. The Konig class had hardly been laid down in 1911-12 when news that the RN was going to 15" weapons, and the Germans had to move on to the Bayern class ships to keep up.

[ img ]
Author:  Tempest [ June 23rd, 2017, 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
Nice upgrades!

The biggest reason the German had picked the designs that they had built was a limited budget.

Now when I get around to scanning the pages with the alternate ship designs (apologies for not doing it yet as in between work I've been decorating) you'll have some more ideas.

I've read (somewhere) that there was no actual reason for there to be three funnels on the Helgoland class (especially when so close together) except for nostalgia/ aesthetic reasons. In fact one of the designs for Kaiser has a design not too dissimilar from the Helgoland class.

I have noticed on Freidrich Der Grosse the rear turrets shading for the shadows where the turret hangs over the barbette isn't quite right and you need to recolour the turrets to match the colours used by Gd. On Grosser Kurfurst I can see Shading issues on the barbette of D turret and the fronts of turrets on A & B are out of place and their barbettes have shading issues also.

I'm looking forward to seeing the Bayern class!
Author:  Krakatoa [ June 27th, 2017, 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
Kaiser class rebuilds.

The five Kaiser class end up with 3 being retained by the German Navy as a deterrent to the Bolshevik forces in the Baltic, the other two being sold by the Allied War Reparations Commission to Iberia (Spain and Portugal combined). 1931 the Germans start converting their three Kaisers to battle raiders, and these are my replacements for the pocket battleships. Rebuilds completed by 1934-35. 1932 and the Iberians are taken into the Germans confidence and shown the plans for the Kaiser rebuilds. While the Iberians like the idea of the battle raider, they do not require the extreme range of the German ships. The German ships are fitted with diesel / turbine combined propulsion units, the Iberians go with turbines only.

Germanic States threesome:

[ img ]

Iberian pair:

[ img ]
Author:  Krakatoa [ June 29th, 2017, 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
The Konig class German Rebuilds 1935-36.

The Germans were allowed to retain 2 of the four Konig class ships. Being later rebuilds than the Kaiser class, the Konigs fitted a dual purpose battery in place of the Kaisers 5.9" and 88mm weapons. No thought was made to fit aircraft handling equipment as the space was just not there without removing a main turret aft. Something that was just never considered. The other two Konig class being sold to Argentina.

[ img ]
Author:  Keisser [ June 29th, 2017, 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
Krakatoa, I see that you removed two barbettes from Kaiser class battleships. I suppose that this will require a lot of costs to do and is highly prodigally. For money you would spend on cutting the barbettes off and building new structure you can definetly build some cruisers and save artillery power on your BBs.
I am not sure that old WW1 dreadnought with 3x2 305 mm guns will be a thing in 1933. Is there even a reason for such rebuilding or rebuilding at all?
Author:  Krakatoa [ June 29th, 2017, 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
Do you remember how the pocket battleships are armed? 6x11". What made them dangerous was the very long range combined with a reasonable speed.

To replace those ships I convert the Kaiser class. If I leave the 10x12" in place - then the range is about 8,000 nmi at 12 knots. The PB's had a range of 18,000 nmi @ 18 knots. Take out the B and X turrets, barbettes, loading gear, magazines and the rest of it, provides space to fit a new diesel/turbine combined installation that provides a range of 15,000 @ 18 knots. Not quite as good, but near enough, and the speeds become reasonable as well.

It is always cost vs worth of the result of the work. During the 1920-1935 period is called the 'battleship holiday'. No battleship construction is undertaken during this period. The British, Italians, Japanese, all did full renovations of battleships during this time. The precedent to do this is there, it is just how far you want to go.

I do not think any 'couple of cruisers' would do the job I ask the three Kaiser class to do.
Author:  Thiel [ June 29th, 2017, 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
But the pocket battleships weren't all that dangerous...
Author:  Krakatoa [ June 29th, 2017, 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
Quite right Thiel, but these three conversions will be extremely dangerous in a raider role.

How would Harwoods three cruisers get on at the River Plate if their opponent was a Kaiser?



Smallish Edit:

My overall global plan includes the fictitious AU's like the Fisherless RN, to which I then have right of reply with German ships to keep a balance. The RN starts with a few more small CVL's for raider hunting with the French and RN Battlecruisers as the ship of force to sink the raider once it is discovered. To make that a bit harder I replace the 3 Deutschland class raiders with 5 much more capable ships that gives the larger RN something to do. I have a few juicy battles in mind to write about for the interception and destruction of the ships I have created.
Author:  Keisser [ June 30th, 2017, 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
Dont forget that PB's were much faster than your rebuilt Kaiser. I doubt this thing will sail faster then ~21 kts. What makes her a really intermediate raider. She wont be able to chase cruisers and escape from any threat.
Author:  Krakatoa [ June 30th, 2017, 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
Actually Keisser why would I create something that would be slower than a Pocket Battleship? The whole reason to remove the turrets is to give a bigger-better-faster powerplant, with greater range. The original Konigs already made 21 knots on their original powerplants. Anything over 25 knots would give enough speed to escape most battleships of the time.

The Konigs do not need to chase cruisers. Cruisers cant do any damage to them.

Something for you to have a think about.
It is easy to forget (with modern technology) that a ship by itself, with no radar or own aircraft, is limited to the vision range from the highest spotting point on the ship. Depending on visibility this would be a range of 15-20 miles in best conditions. On a 1 meter map of the world, that would hardly be a pin prick. Radar might go out to 30 miles, slightly bigger pin prick. Own aircraft or from a carrier raises the search area considerably maybe as much as 150 miles from base and greatly increases the chances of interception. Land based airpower with its greater range keeps the raider from enemy coast lines. Any raider commander just has to draw the appropriate circles on the map as to where land airpower can reach and the rest of the map is his to play hide and seek in. At wars start and until the convoy system is implemented the raider vessel does have an advantage. It can intercept the known trade routes where the merchantmen will be found, strike, then run back into the empty areas to strike again somewhere else. The British know this and use cruiser size vessels to patrol the trade routes and while a single ship would not be big enough to engage the raiders they should be fast enough to trail the raider till larger ships could be brought to the raiders position. This works if the trailing ship has radar to keep the raider in 'sight' during the night, otherwise the raider can escape again under the cover of darkness.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
https://www.phpbb.com/