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smurf
Post subject: Re: German Interwar Cruiser AUPosted: October 27th, 2017, 8:26 pm
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I had a brief PM exchange with DG_Alpha about the 1921 Emden design in Groner's book, which I couldn't post.
That had 4x2 150mm in twin 'turrets' but I wonder whether they were really open back shields, like Tromps, or the Spanish Cervantes cruisers.
This Emden pops up as a base for various personal or alternative universe designs, but so far as I can see no-one has drawn it as a Neverwere in its own right.
The turrets above on 'Berlin' look OK, but the experimental twin on HMS Enterprise only appeared in 1926, then on Nelson and only in a RN cruiser full armament when Leander was commissioned in 1933, though
Konigsberg was commissioned in 1929, Germany under great pressure to squeeze good armament into their 6000ton treaty limit of the 1920s.
The German navy had concluded that their WW1 5000ton cruisers were too small for ocean work, and not fast enough to match the RN Cs and Ds. Had they won, I think they might have gone for something general purpose with 17cm guns (6.75in) - a smaller Hawkins perhaps. that wouldn't look very different from your Berlin.


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DG_Alpha
Post subject: Re: German Interwar Cruiser AUPosted: October 29th, 2017, 7:19 pm
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The original Emden design was designed with open-back shielded twin-mounts, but that was vetoed by the Allied disarmament comitee. Also, she was designed imediately after the war, when Germany needed modern cruisers. Here, with the Cöln-class completed, Germany has more time and freedom to came up with a new design. And with a few years down the line, some more 'modern' elements can be introduced.

As for the 170mm guns, I'm not sure. Those guns were only used on the old pre-dreadnaughts and suffered from a lower fire rate compared to the omnipresent 150mm guns. Also, 150mm seemed to be a wiedely accepeted gun size for light cruisers everywhere. As for 'heavier' cruisers, those were armed with 210mm guns, but the remaining ships would be pretty much useless after the war. Here, I think it would depend on what other nations are doing and whether or not something like the Naval treaties would come into effect. Should the limit be set to 203mm, then I guess Germany would follow other nations and build heavy cruisers with the same gun caliber (maybe something along the lines of design I/10).

Maybe I can come up with a theoretical design of a heavy/light cruiser armed with 170mm guns.

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smurf
Post subject: Re: German Interwar Cruiser AUPosted: October 30th, 2017, 8:31 pm
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Hm ... Some thoughts
"SMS Berlin 1925" In the "Neverwere" section, the date usually refers to the design study, doesn't it?
"The turrets are once again based on the Königsberg-class" do you mean the triple turrets of the Köln class laid down in 1926, commissioned 1929-30?
"Here, with the Cöln-class completed" Do you mean the wartime Köln class, giving Germany some more modern cruisers?
"150mm seemed to be a widely accepted gun size for light cruisers everywhere" Agreed, almost certainly because its shell was the heaviest which could be hand loaded, though the RN had 7.5in on the Hawkins class, and looked at 7.5in on variants of the E class - but hand loading those took two men and a special grab.
I agree the old German 170mm is not ideal, but the 7.5in (190.5mm) on Hawkins was not the same gun as on the earlier armoured cruisers.
If Germany is to consider what other nations are doing, they will need to go to a bigger ship with 8in (with Germany an active negotiator at "Washington Mk2" they would probably get the capital ship/cruiser gun size limit set at 210mm instead of 203mm (8in) just as at London 1930 the light cruiser limit was 155mm 6.1in, not 6in, to accommodate the French.
But what I was really doing was just suggesting you might draw Emden 1921 for the 'Neverwere' section where my interests lie...


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DG_Alpha
Post subject: Re: German Interwar Cruiser AUPosted: October 31st, 2017, 7:24 pm
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"SMS Berlin 1925" In the "Neverwere" section, the date usually refers to the design study, doesn't it?
In the Never-built-section, yes, but I haven't actually decided what counts for "Berlin" yet. It's still a work in progress after all.
Quote:
"The turrets are once again based on the Königsberg-class" do you mean the triple turrets of the Köln class laid down in 1926, commissioned 1929-30?
Yes, the Königsberg-III-class/K-class interwar design. The turrets are similar in design, but downsized a bit because they are only twin turrets.
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"150mm seemed to be a widely accepted gun size for light cruisers everywhere" Agreed, almost certainly because its shell was the heaviest which could be hand loaded, though the RN had 7.5in on the Hawkins class, and looked at 7.5in on variants of the E class - but hand loading those took two men and a special grab.
I agree the old German 170mm is not ideal, but the 7.5in (190.5mm) on Hawkins was not the same gun as on the earlier armoured cruisers.
Yes, the Germans had the same issues on the pre-dreadnoughts. Originally designed for 150mm secondaries, they were later enlarged to 170mm, but also manually loaded. This put additional strain on the crew and reduced the firing rate.
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If Germany is to consider what other nations are doing, they will need to go to a bigger ship with 8in (with Germany an active negotiator at "Washington Mk2" they would probably get the capital ship/cruiser gun size limit set at 210mm instead of 203mm (8in) just as at London 1930 the light cruiser limit was 155mm 6.1in, not 6in, to accommodate the French.
Hm, maybe. Germany did not built any armoured cruisers during the war and at the end, only three (two with 240mm main guns, one with 210mm mains guns) were left. All had been disarmed and removed from active service pretty much since 1916, while the Hawkins-class was brand new. Germany could compromise here, maybe for concessions in other areas.
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But what I was really doing was just suggesting you might draw Emden 1921 for the 'Neverwere' section where my interests lie...
I did that a while back. It's not the most up-to-date anymore, but I think it still looks adequate:http://www.shipbucket.com/drawings/4411

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: German Interwar Cruiser AUPosted: November 1st, 2017, 1:24 am
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Howdy DG,

That Emden drawing you reference is the drawing I used as the basis for the German 'Medium' cruiser drawings I did awhile back.

Admiral class cruiser (personal design) viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7732


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DG_Alpha
Post subject: Re: German Interwar Cruiser AUPosted: November 5th, 2017, 6:09 pm
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That Emden drawing you reference is the drawing I used as the basis for the German 'Medium' cruiser drawings I did awhile back.
I have seen your ships. You certainly have some interesting ideas.

Spent the last few days on this one: More a direct post-war design study, a medium cruiser with 170mm guns. Influences came from Köln, FK1a, Dresden, Emden and Design II/10. Main armamanet is no less than than ten 170mm barrels in two twin mounts and six single mounts. Additional firepower comes from two 88mm single flaks and four 600mm twin torpedo tubes.

I have some ideas for some more hevay cruisers in my head, I might do them next.
[ img ]

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Hood
Post subject: Re: German Interwar Cruiser AUPosted: November 6th, 2017, 9:18 am
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I like it, powerful for its size. Certainly a match for a Hawkins.
The design itself looks perfect for the period, you've blended those styles well.

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DG_Alpha
Post subject: Re: German Interwar Cruiser AUPosted: January 14th, 2018, 8:50 pm
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Hello everyone:

After my computer alomost dying (again), I got back to the heavy cruiser designs. Additionally, the Berlin on page one has been updated.

WKD1/1031
Design WKD1/1031 incoprorated more features from concurrent battleships than cruisers. Range and endurance took a step back for thick armor and firepower. The main batteries were three 240mm twin turrest, supplemented by six 150mm casemate guns. Two 88mm flaks and four underwater 600mm torpedo tubes completed the design, that was true to the 'armored' part of armored cruiser.
[ img ]

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Hood
Post subject: Re: German Interwar Cruiser AUPosted: January 18th, 2018, 9:52 am
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Casemates are perhaps a bit anachronistic for 1919 but the design looks good.
I would question if there is room for the aft torpedo room abeam 'X' barbette.

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Tempest
Post subject: Re: German Interwar Cruiser AUPosted: February 1st, 2018, 5:02 am
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These drawings are really cool. I don’t know how I missed your topic. Would love to see more.

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