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erik_t
Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 2nd, 2018, 6:04 pm
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Hood, I'm very fond of your KGV-cousin, although I find myself wondering about the forward main battery director's field of view. Given a broad optical rangefinder, it seems likely it would not be able to range on targets much aft of broadside, which isn't so desirable.

rdfox... you certainly entered with a bang. She's a monster. I wonder if you're being a bit over-optimistic for speed on that plant with such a broad hull, being larger, faster, and lower-powered than a South Dakota. On the other hand, you certainly have the hull volume amidships to run a larger steam plant. Indeed, the midships seems somewhat empty and wasted, even in 1942. Which is not to say I think you should just dump in more 5/38 to fill space... not sure. A great first drawing here!


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rdfox76
Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 3rd, 2018, 12:06 am
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...I knew there was something I left out of the lore segment. The midships area was meant originally for boats and boat cranes, but those were left off during construction after War Were Declared.


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Keisser
Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 3rd, 2018, 5:23 am
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How will the crew be saved then in case of sinking?

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Garlicdesign
Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 3rd, 2018, 10:01 am
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Hi everyone!

Picking up steam, that challenge...

@Hood: very plausible early 1930s design. I like it a lot. Have the boats you used been posted separately somewhere?

@rdfox: interesting design, although the top view is more than 38 meters wide rather than the 36,5 you gave it. She'll probably come out even heavier.

Greetings
GD


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Hood
Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 3rd, 2018, 10:35 am
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Erik_T,
Once again your perceptive eye is spot on.
I felt something was odd about the layout and I wasn't 100% happy about it so I've remodelled the Admiral's bridge, giving more space and raising the main rangefinder and giving it more arc coverage.

GD,
I've shamelessly stolen those boats from Charguizard's excellent Design 16A drawing. They are probably the best looking inter-war/wartime ship's boats we have for the barges etc.

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Charguizard
Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 3rd, 2018, 2:11 pm
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Umm, I took the boats from Garlic's interwar superdreadnoughts :?
I just recoloured them and made the smaller one based on my references. The launch is based on the one in Deskjetser's Minotaur and given a facelift.
Here they are if anyone needs them, but I wouldn't put them in the wiki until they are properly identified (I have no idea what they're called).
[ img ]
(btw I am 100% elated at Hood's praise and high regard for my work)

Also congratulations to the recent entrants, we're seeing some top-quality battlebarges and this will certainly be a tough competition.


Last edited by Charguizard on June 3rd, 2018, 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 3rd, 2018, 2:12 pm
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If they cannot be identified, feel free to put them on the wiki is 'random boats of 'time period' sheet.

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BB1987
Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 3rd, 2018, 2:46 pm
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Those boats (at least the rowboats) might have originated from Bezobrazov's Victorian/Edwardian sheet:
[ img ]

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rdfox76
Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 3rd, 2018, 9:55 pm
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@keisser: I included sufficient life rafts for 2500 men, if you count them up.

@garlicdesign: Ah, that's because the beam in the Springsharp report is at the waterline; with the external belt inclined at 19 degrees, you get a wider beam at the top of the hull. (I tried to even draw in the top of the belt armor where it would be visible, but it may not have been as successful as I hoped.)


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maomatic
Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 3rd, 2018, 10:45 pm
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Wow, some incredible drawings in this thread!

_______________________________________________________

Here's my idea of an alternative Scharnhorst-class Battleships:

The two ships of this class were laid down in 1935 after the conclusion of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, which in effect removed the limitations of the Treaty of Versailles from the German Navy.

At the time, German naval planning was primarily aimed against the French. Thus, the new ships needed to be able to combat the new Dunkerque-class battlecruisers, then under uncunstruction.
Furthermore they should fullfill the role of heavy commerce raiders, capable of attacking French shipping in the Atlantic - even when covered by heavier screening forces such as cruisers.
A balance of range, speed and protection were thus deemed to be the most importand features of the new designs.

Consequently it was decided to equip the ships with a mixed turbine-diesel propulsion system, capable of generating speed matching the Dunkerques and enabling them to theoretically travel up to 14.500nmi.

In support of the British desire to limit main-gun calibre to 14inch, the ships were armed with eight of the new 350mm guns built by Krupp. They were mounted in two quadruple turrets, in a layout somewhat reminiscend of the earlier Panzerschiffe: one fore and one aft.
This was chosen to keep the citadel as short as possible and had the side effect of satisfying the German artillerists' preference of shooting in half-salvoes.
When commissioned, operation of the newly designed quadruple turrets proved troublesome. Teething problems led to reliability issues and a dissatisfying spread.
However, most of these issues could be resolved during wartime, by the addition of mechanical improvements, newly designed shells and improved crew training.

Since the ships were expected to fight in the rough waters of the Northern-Sea and the Atlantic, where combat ranges were deemed to be low, great importance was given to their vertical protection.
Emphasis was also put on the protection of the main gun turrets, sporting heavy face armor of 400mm, since every disabling hit there would mean the loss of half of the main armament.
As a weight-saving measure, less important parts of the ships were left unarmored, while other minor areas only received a mixed degree of splinter-protection.

The ships were very stable, suffering from only slight pitching and rolling. Yet, they tended to be wet forward in heavy seas.
So much, that operating turret A became problematic - imparing the ability to use 50% of their main-armament.
This problem was somewhat reduced by replacing the straight stem with an "Atlantic bow" in early to mid. 1939. Although this refit did improve the seakeeping, the issue could never be totally resolved and remained in very heavy weather.


[ img ]

[ img ]

[ img ]




Springsharp

Alternative Scharnhorst, Germany Battleship laid down 1935

Displacement:
33.332 t light; 35.000 t standard; 37.464 t normal; 39.436 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(769,98 ft / 760,50 ft) x 104,99 ft x (31,17 / 32,43 ft)
(234,69 m / 231,80 m) x 32,00 m x (9,50 / 9,89 m)

Armament:
8 - 14,00" / 356 mm 52,0 cal guns - 1.377,89lbs / 625,00kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1934 Model
2 x 4-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 5,87" / 149 mm 60,0 cal guns - 100,31lbs / 45,50kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
16 - 4,13" / 105 mm 65,0 cal guns - 33,29lbs / 15,10kg shells, 350 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1933 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
16 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 83,0 cal guns - 1,63lbs / 0,74kg shells, 1.800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
9 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 65,0 cal guns - 0,31lbs / 0,14kg shells, 2.400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
9 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
5 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 12.186 lbs / 5.528 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14,0" / 355 mm 470,87 ft / 143,52 m 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
Ends: 1,77" / 45 mm 231,30 ft / 70,50 m 7,87 ft / 2,40 m
58,33 ft / 17,78 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1,18" / 30 mm 470,87 ft / 143,52 m 7,87 ft / 2,40 m = anti-splinter bulkead - see below
Main Belt covers 95% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1,77" / 45 mm 459,32 ft / 140,00 m 27,89 ft / 8,50 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 75,46 ft / 23,00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,7" / 400 mm 7,87" / 200 mm 14,0" / 355 mm
2nd: 5,12" / 130 mm 4,13" / 105 mm 4,92" / 125 mm
3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 6,10" / 155 mm
Forecastle: 1,18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 2,76" / 70 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 14,96" / 380 mm, Aft 4,72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 133.000 shp / 99.218 Kw = 29,55 kts
Range 14.500nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4.436 tons

Complement:
1.346 - 1.750

Cost:
£15,953 million / $63,813 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3.294 tons, 8,8%
- Guns: 3.294 tons, 8,8%
Armour: 13.514 tons, 36,1%
- Belts: 4.958 tons, 13,2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 840 tons, 2,2%
- Armament: 2.073 tons, 5,5%
- Armour Deck: 5.168 tons, 13,8%
- Conning Towers: 475 tons, 1,3%
Machinery: 3.778 tons, 10,1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.496 tons, 33,4%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.132 tons, 11,0%
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 0,7%
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 50 tons
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons
- Above deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
53.090 lbs / 24.081 Kg = 38,7 x 14,0 " / 356 mm shells or 8,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
Metacentric height 6,8 ft / 2,1 m
Roll period: 16,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,14

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,527 / 0,533
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,24 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27,58 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,20 degrees
Stern overhang: 8,86 ft / 2,70 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 23,00%, 29,53 ft / 9,00 m, 21,65 ft / 6,60 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 21,65 ft / 6,60 m, 19,29 ft / 5,88 m
- Aft deck: 27,00%, 19,29 ft / 5,88 m, 19,29 ft / 5,88 m
- Quarter deck: 20,00%, 19,29 ft / 5,88 m, 21,16 ft / 6,45 m
- Average freeboard: 21,10 ft / 6,43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95,3%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153,7%
Waterplane Area: 54.533 Square feet or 5.066 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 187 lbs/sq ft or 911 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,24
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


Additional Data:

Propulsion:
[/u]
Speed ~29,6 Knots (trials 30,1kt)

133.000 hp, 4 shafts:
->Outer shaft: 2x Germania geared Turbines, 8x Wagner ultra-high-pressure oil-fired boilers
->Inner shaft: 4x 11 Cyl. MAN Diesel engines


Protection

Basically a scheme similar to the real Scharnhorst, but with a little touch of "all or nothing":

[ img ]

No upper belt, the decapping deck (50mm) was moved down to the top of the belt.
Main armored deck ~5mm thicker over magazines.
The splinter bulkhead was increased from 20mm IRL to 30mm and moved closer to the belt.

For the ends, a mixed degree of splinter protection was chosen, as shrapnel hits in this area could potentially impair speed, which is vital for a raider.

Also, an armored box of 220mm was installed around the steering gear.

Equipment:
1939: 1x FW—62V1 , 2x HE-114 (1 disassembled)
1940: 3x Ar 196 (1 disassembled)

1940: Hydrophones, Anti-Mine-System (degaussing loop)

Optical Equipment:
4x 10,5m Rangefinder
1x 6m Rangefinder
4x 4m Rangefinder SL-6
1x 3m Rangefinder

4x 1,6m Searchlights (1942: 3)

Radar:
1939: FuMO 22
1941: FuMO 22, FuMO 27
1942 / 43: 2x FuMO 27, FuMB 3, FuMB 4. FuMB 6


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