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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 14th, 2018, 12:55 am
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Nice try, but I think tjat funnel is too narrow.


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1143M
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 14th, 2018, 7:49 am
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I readjusted my entry, dsmantled Akitsuki-class, replace it to the Type 051

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Archelaos
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 14th, 2018, 2:05 pm
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Ok, here is my entry, currently only "as built". I plan to add some later refits, but need to read a fair bit on radars, missiles etc before...

End of The World War (1.IX.1947) saw PLK Commonwealth severely weakened. While a simple survival of the Soviet invasion can be seen as a massive victory, just as well as the fact that threat of US nuclear bombs finally put an end to bloodshed and revived old concept of status quo peace, the war ravaged eastern half of the country, while communist sponsored rebels took control in Polish East Africa. On Madagascar rebels were contained, but civil war was to continue for many years to come.
Navy, formerly pride of the state, was in tatters. Many ships were lost, but most importantly, post war reconstruction of the country forced massive cuts to naval budget. Almost all capital ships were scrapped or mothballed. Number of smaller ships was also greatly reduced and all new constructions were put on hold or cancelled. It took almost two years for the first new ones to begin.
Finally, in 1949 a new class of destroyers was authorized. Ships were designed to be effective in “small war” that dominated during World War in Baltic. But they also needed to be fast enough to operate with fleet task forces at home and overseas, be able to engage land targets and hunt submarines. Drawing onto war experience, decision was made to equip those ships with strong AA battery, to help them survive in zones saturated with aircraft, like Baltic. As result of all those requirements, Kozak class ships were to be bigger than any other DD leader in PLKC Navy and by many seen as a small scout cruiser rather than typical DD.

[ img ]

As result, twin 12cm turrets recently developed by Cegielski Engineering were picked as main armament. Extremely advanced at the date of design, they were automatically loaded, resulting in fire ratio around 40 shells per minute.
Those guns were supplemented by 3in AA guns MK33 obtained from USA and 6 newest Bofors 40mm L70 AA guns. Two triple 533mm torpedo launchers were mounted on the sides amidships. They were capable of launching various torpedoes, from well tested and reliable wz.38 and wz.43 to newest homing TNN-52A (surface targets) and TNP-51C (ASW). Usually the middle tube housed ASW torpedo.

Initially six were planned but as the fast paced progress in aviation (widespread use of jet engines) and missile technology quickly reduced importance of AA artillery, only first batch of three were finished. All of them received names of inhabitants of regions of the Commonweatlh beginning with letter K: Kozak Kaszub and Kujawiak. Second batch, planned to be laid down in 1951 were initially delayed pending reassessment and later cancelled in favor of new design.
Despite that, the class was considered a success, one of the reasons being that massive, long range bombers were not what PLKC Navy feared most. Instead, a swarm of light planes attacking at low altitude was seen as a main threat, especially as Soviets shown that they are ready to sacrifice multiple pilots and planes to achieve a goal, bombing in large groups from various directions.

ORP Kozak was laid down in Royal Naval Yard in Riga in August 1949, launched in September 1950 and completed in May 1952, ORP Krakowiak was laid down in Gdańsk Naval Yard in December 1949, launched in November 1950 and completed in June 1952 finally ORP Kurlandczyk was laid down in Vickers-Ventspils in January 1950, launched in March 1951 and completed in December 1952.

Displacement:
2 733 t light; 2 866 t standard; 3 619 t normal; 4 222 t full load

Dimensions:
LOA: 135,17 m / 443,49 ft
Waterline: 131,83 m / 432,50 ft
Beam: 12,50 m / 41,01 ft
Draught: 4,26 m normal, 4,79 m deep (13,98 / 15,70 ft)

Armament:
3x2 - 4,72" / 120 mm L50 wz.50
3x2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm L50 Mk33
2x2+2x1 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm L70 M1948
2x3 - 21,0" / 533 mm in deck mounted side rotating tubes
2 triple Squid ASW mortars

Sensors:
Model 412 air search radar
Model 421 surface search radar
SKO-12/N GFCS
2x Mk.56 GFCS
Model 147 bow sonar
Model 56 HFDF

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 69 300 shp / 51 698 Kw = 35,00 kts
Range 4 500nm at 20,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1 357 tons

ORP Krakowiak in Overseas Pattern 44, during her deployment in the Far East

[ img ]


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Yasutomi
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 14th, 2018, 3:56 pm
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There are some amazing drawings appearing here!
1143M wrote: *
I readjusted my entry, dsmantled Akitsuki-class, replace it to the Type 051
I hope you post the Tai Yuan elsewhere; I really liked it! ;)


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1143M
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 14th, 2018, 4:24 pm
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Yasutomi wrote: *
There are some amazing drawings appearing here!
1143M wrote: *
I readjusted my entry, dsmantled Akitsuki-class, replace it to the Type 051
I hope you post the Tai Yuan elsewhere; I really liked it! ;)
OK~I will~And thank you for liking it~

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erik_t
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 15th, 2018, 1:48 am
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This challenge is so far up my alley that I'm actually pretty sad I don't think I'm going to be able to complete an entry by the deadline. Work is nuts right now. But I'm happy to present my thinking and hopefully, someday, finish the drawing!

Premise (somewhat fuzzy):
  • Let's start with the proto-Farragut fast task force escort Friedman describes of the early 1950s: 4x Mk 42 5"/54, 2x 3"/50 twin, a single quintuple 21" TT, a few hedgehogs, fit for radar picket duty. Variously, about 480ft LWL, 5000tFL, 35 knots trial.
  • Let's suppose, fundamentally, that the Soviets pushed a somewhat more aggressive surface fleet. More Sverdlovs, maybe even some capital units (maybe Sovetskiy Soyuz, maybe Stalingrad, maybe something else). This has an effect on what postwar surface warfare systems NATO pursues.
  • This also motivates a more surface-focused main caliber disposition, rather than the Forrest Sherman A/X/Y.
  • Let's imagine that, rather than collaborating on 3"/70, the RN and USN instead semi-collaborate on the RN 5"/70 project, which has been drawn here before.
  • Because I can, I choose to "invert" the historical situation: both navies bring their L70 system into service, but in this case the USN system is less ambitious and more successful. Imagine, say, a 5"/70 twin that's reliably good for 30rpm per barrel. These are big mounts, by the way.
  • The threat of major surface units in the North Atlantic means the favored (c.f. Friedman) torpedo arrangement is pursued, which required more length but was more capable, especially in that environment.
  • We have to lose a turret because the 5"/70 is huge, and I want to differentiate myself from a Forrest Sherman! So because handwave, let's put a single Squid aft as a keep-them-honest ASW armament. Maybe the Brits are paying us off for collaborating on the 5"/70 ;)
Final setup: a similar ship to the one Friedman describes, but with 3x2 5"/70, 3x2 3"/50, a single Squid, and eight fixed 21" TT (capable of surface fire with gyro adjustment). SQS-4 or similar, I need to do some research on that. Likely Mk 32 SVTT would be fitted, the huge midships torpedo space would give way to either an SSM arrangement or to electronics with time, and who knows what the stern missile arrangement would turn out to be.

[ img ]

Guesstimate: 5500 tons full load, 34 knots on pressure-fired steam.


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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 15th, 2018, 1:54 am
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Gents, if people need some more time I'm happy to extend to Sept 15th. ;) Would that help Erik?

My desire was just to provide a target date, but slipping by 2 weeks doesn't bother me much (early Sept will likely be too busy for me to be judging on time anyway).

While we're on that subject, if people would like to judge please contact me via PM. If you are a judge you can't enter a drawing. So far TimothyC has volunteered but no one else (need at least 1-2 more). Do not volunteer if you can't reasonably expect to turn around the judging card within 3 days of contest ending.

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erik_t
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 15th, 2018, 2:07 am
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Heh, I don't think it would. I draw slow these days, and my team is swamped through October at least.

How about I'll volunteer to judge and then I'll finish this puppy up on my own time?


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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 15th, 2018, 2:39 am
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Deal. Let's keep the ending date as 8/31 unless there are at least 2-3 more people who need more time.

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Hood
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 15th, 2018, 7:52 am
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Erik,
I think you've helped sort my gun conundrum.
I've being toying with 5in L/70 versus 4.5in Mk 6 versus 4in Vickers Mk N and couldn't decide which to go with.
The twin 5in mount which I drew for the GW cruisers was speculative but its a massive mount, too big for a destroyer. Historically the RN rejected the 5in L/70 partly because of its inferior AA rate of fire and stuck with the twin 4.5in instead despite also wanting good hitting power against Sverdlovs etc.
Thinking about my AH RN scenario overall, having a 5in gun makes more sense and to me the superior surface hitting power counts more.
I won't steal your gun turret but it will inspire my own AH twin 5in mount.

I really hope you do finish off your drawing, it promises to be an interesting design.

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