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Karle94
Post subject: Poundstones Battleship: A Dreadnought Before There Were DreadnoughtsPosted: April 21st, 2019, 11:33 pm
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This one will require a lot of backstory, and explanation, so bear with me. First, Poundstone was a commander in the US Navy and did a lot of work with the Navy College, where they come up with new stuff for the future. They draw up plans and do war games to test out current and future designs and ideas. Poundstone became an early advocate for an all-big-gun battleship as early as 1902. The Navy College had been experimenting with that idea since 1901. In 1903 Poundstone came up with the idea of a battleship armed with 12x11 or 12 inch guns, and a secondary battery of 8x7 or 8 inch guns and as many 3 inch guns as possible. He wanted a speed of 24 kts on a hull with a diplacement of 17k tons. Poundstone wanted nothing less than 12 inches of belt armor. This design, as well as some of the earlier ones would make use of triple turrets for the main battery. My first thoughts was that this is simply impossible on a 17k ton displacement. His ideas would help lay the foundation for the chosen design of the South Carolina class.

My design is a cut-down version using the standard twin 12 inch turrets used on the other battleships, in addition, I've used the twin 8 inch gun turrets from the Pennsylvania class cruisers and Mississippi class battleships. I dropped them down one level, to open up some deck space for 3 inch guns. As for the hull, I used the Tennessee class ACRs as well as the South Carolina class for inspiration. It's length is on par with the ACRs, so that gives me a bigger hull to work with. (In hindsight limiting me to a roughly 150m hull might have been a bad idea.) Everything above deck is inspired by the previous classes of battleships and armored cruisers, with three thin smoke stacks, and two pole, or as I suspect, tubular masts as opposed to the future ships with hyperboloid lattice masts. I limited the speed to 21 kts, as 24 kts was rather optimistic with coal fired triple vertical espansion engines. The Tennessee class that has a heavy influence on my design made 22 kts on a 4-5 meter longer hull. As for armor, it has 12 inches of belt armor, with 8 inches at the ends and below the waterline.

I purposfully made the ship look like the older ships to make her look like an all-big-gun version of a pre-dreadnought

[ img ]

USS South Carolina, United States of America, Battleship, designed in 1903

Displacement:
23 495 t light; 24 826 t standard; 26 600 t normal; 28 020 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
488,00 ft / 488,00 ft x 78,74 ft x 24,61 ft (normal load)
148,74 m / 148,74 m x 24,00 m x 7,50 m

Armament:
8 - 12,00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864,00lbs / 391,90kg shells, 1903 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 8,00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256,00lbs / 116,12kg shells, 1903 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
20 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1903 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
2 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns in single mounts, 3,17lbs / 1,44kg shells, 1903 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 9 236 lbs / 4 190 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
2 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 340,00 ft / 103,63 m 16,50 ft / 5,03 m
Ends: 8,00" / 203 mm 147,00 ft / 44,81 m 16,00 ft / 4,88 m
1,00 ft / 0,30 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3,00" / 76 mm 340,00 ft / 103,63 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 10,0" / 254 mm
2nd: 6,00" / 152 mm 4,00" / 102 mm 6,00" / 152 mm

- Armour deck: 2,50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 39 506 ihp / 29 472 Kw = 21,00 kts
Range 6 950nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3 194 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
1 040 - 1 353

Cost:
£2,618 million / $10,471 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 155 tons, 4,3 %
Armour: 8 512 tons, 32,0 %
- Belts: 3 661 tons, 13,8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 377 tons, 1,4 %
- Armament: 2 447 tons, 9,2 %
- Armour Deck: 1 795 tons, 6,7 %
- Conning Tower: 230 tons, 0,9 %
Machinery: 5 896 tons, 22,2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7 832 tons, 29,4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 105 tons, 11,7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21 794 lbs / 9 885 Kg = 25,2 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
Metacentric height 4,3 ft / 1,3 m
Roll period: 15,9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak, raised quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0,985
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,20 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22,09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: -4,00 ft / -1,22 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24,00 ft / 7,32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24,00 ft / 7,32 m
- Mid (50 %): 24,00 ft / 7,32 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17,00 ft / 5,18 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m before break)
- Stern: 17,50 ft / 5,33 m
- Average freeboard: 20,19 ft / 6,15 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 145,3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140,0 %
Waterplane Area: 38 820 Square feet or 3 607 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 734 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,35
- Overall: 1,01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

I decided to make a version of Poundtsones idea that did without the 8 inch guns and makes use of triple turrets on 24kts top speed. I decided not to limit myself to the size of ships that already existed, but instead use the Wyoming class as a base. Originally, by 1904 Poundstone wanted only 3 inch guns as secondaries, kinda like the South Carolina class as built, so I threw in some 6 inch casemates, because 3 inch guns would soon prove to be inadequate against destroyers, nor did they have the range as new long range torpedoes were being made. Stylistically, it also resembles the pre-dreadnought ships, with some South Carolina like features thrown in to showcase what they would one day become. Even when using a 170 meter long hull, the displacement had to bee inflated twofold to get the necessary strength to make the ships viable. Proving that such a ship that Poundstone wanted was not feasible in the first years of the 20th century.

[ img ]

USS South Carolina, United States of America Battleship laid down 1906
DESIGN FAILURE: Displacement impossible with given dimensions

Displacement:
29 169 t light; 30 303 t standard; 32 250 t normal; 33 807 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
560,00 ft / 560,00 ft x 78,74 ft x 25,00 ft (normal load)
170,69 m / 170,69 m x 24,00 m x 7,62 m

Armament:
12 - 11,00" / 279 mm guns (4x3 guns), 665,50lbs / 301,87kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, all amidships
30 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 9 471 lbs / 4 296 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 90
4 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 373,00 ft / 113,69 m 15,50 ft / 4,72 m
Ends: 8,00" / 203 mm 99,00 ft / 30,18 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m
88,00 ft / 26,82 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3,00" / 76 mm 373,00 ft / 113,69 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 5,00" / 127 mm 11,0" / 279 mm
2nd: 6,00" / 152 mm 3,00" / 76 mm -

- Armour deck: 2,50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Hydraulic drive, 4 shafts, 71 641 ihp / 53 444 Kw = 24,00 kts
Range 6 950nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3 504 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
1 203 - 1 564

Cost:
£3,448 million / $13,793 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 184 tons, 3,7 %
Armour: 8 503 tons, 26,4 %
- Belts: 3 355 tons, 10,4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 414 tons, 1,3 %
- Armament: 2 351 tons, 7,3 %
- Armour Deck: 2 120 tons, 6,6 %
- Conning Tower: 262 tons, 0,8 %
Machinery: 10 234 tons, 31,7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9 148 tons, 28,4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 081 tons, 9,6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17 916 lbs / 8 126 Kg = 26,9 x 11,0 " / 279 mm shells or 1,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
Metacentric height 4,9 ft / 1,5 m
Roll period: 15,0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 47 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,89

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 1,024
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,11 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23,66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10,00 degrees
Stern overhang: -4,00 ft / -1,22 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25,00 ft / 7,62 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25,00 ft / 7,62 m
- Mid (50 %): 25,00 ft / 7,62 m (18,00 ft / 5,49 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
- Stern: 19,00 ft / 5,79 m
- Average freeboard: 21,58 ft / 6,58 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181,6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,1 %
Waterplane Area: 45 838 Square feet or 4 258 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 84 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 720 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,01
- Longitudinal: 1,12
- Overall: 1,02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather


Last edited by Karle94 on April 24th, 2019, 7:06 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: Poundstones Battleship: A Dreadnought Before There Were DreadnoughtsPosted: April 22nd, 2019, 8:36 am
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Joined: November 17th, 2010, 8:03 am
Location: Corinth, MS USA
Contact: Website, Skype, YouTube
Nice!

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Shigure
Post subject: Re: Poundstones Battleship: A Dreadnought Before There Were DreadnoughtsPosted: April 22nd, 2019, 12:37 pm
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Joined: May 25th, 2016, 2:05 pm
Interesting stuff

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Hood
Post subject: Re: Poundstones Battleship: A Dreadnought Before There Were DreadnoughtsPosted: April 23rd, 2019, 9:02 am
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Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:07 am
Very nice work and thanks for bringing to our attention an interesting concept that I was certainly unaware of previously.

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Karle94
Post subject: Re: Poundstones Battleship: A Dreadnought Before There Were DreadnoughtsPosted: April 24th, 2019, 7:05 pm
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Joined: November 8th, 2010, 3:07 pm
Location: Norseland
I've added another version of Poundstones battleships, this time making use of triple turrets and a speed of 24 kts.


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