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Post subject: The Last Pre-dreadnought battleship ChallengePosted: January 25th, 2020, 11:03 am
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This time its obvious (i sure hope it remains obvious to all of you special cases), Design and draw your nations Last pre-dreadnought type of battleship, eq ship that does not have uniform main-battery, nor turbine propulsion. The time range is basicly irrelevant, since building times can vary, and what the impact of the first all-big gun/turbine Capital ship has in your universums.

A Battleship
No uniform main battery (max 4 guns of 11 inch and higher)
No turbine propulsion


Length of challenge & judging categories:

This challenge will run until 23:59:59 UTC February 25. Entries submitted after 23:59:59 UTC February 25th will be disqualified.

Drawings will be scored via Google Forms poll, based on the below categories to decide a winner. The poll will close and open once its completed. Categories are as follows, with 10 points available in categories 1-4 and set of ammount for the 5th category that will be announced later…

1. Drawing quality (1-10): quality of the drawing; this would include detailing, shading, accuracy, etc.
2. Design realism (1-10): how realistic the design feels with or without the associated backstory.
3. Originality (1-10): did the artist just copy an existing design and add a new paint scheme, or did they design something new from the ground up?
4. Suitability (1-10): is the design presented actually suitable for the challenge? Does it fulfill the requirements posed?
5. Kitbash factor (suggestions to improve this section are still welcome)

The poll will not allow commentary. Reviewers are encouraged to leave a post in this thread once polling begins with their commentary for each drawing.
NO voting rigging or other negative influencing of the results. Poll will include e-mails and other ID information, so all foul makers will be banned from SB, and artists as well, if we can find evidence that they were behind such activities.


Challenge rules:

- One entry per person.
- One drawing per entry
- Post demanding entries to submit Multiple views are considered offtopic and deleted.
- Text blocks with stats, history, etc are allowed but not required.
- Springsharp stat blocks are allowed but not required.
- Discussion of Springsharp is not allowed in this thread.
- Posts that are off topic in this thread will be deleted.


Coming next for 2021/22: Project 1143 complete redux: Pr1143.4 and 1143.4.2 & Preparations for Pr.61 Remakes

Shipbucket mainsite, aka "The Archive"
Submit your drawings to the archive here
Far Eastern AU wiki

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Post subject: Re: The Last Pre-dreadnought battleship ChallengePosted: January 25th, 2020, 9:21 pm
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Joined: July 1st, 2014, 12:20 am
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Ibiza Class Battleships.

The Ibiza class was the culmination of twenty years of trial and error to produce the perfect 'Battleship' for the Tyrrhenian Navy. The search was for a ship that could fight if it wanted to, but could escape if it thought it might be overmatched by its opponent. Current battleships of the time were making speeds of 17-18 knots and were armed with four by 12" main guns and with a secondary armament of four to twelve 7.5" to 10" guns. These were the semi-dreadnoughts . The Ibiza was armed with the normal four 12" and a secondary battery of eight by 9.2", an armament that was as good if not better than most. Armour thicknesses ran from 10"-12" on foreign ships while the Ibiza only had an 8" armoured belt. What this allowed for was an extra 3-4 knots of speed advantage by the Ibiza over its foreign competitors. This fell in with the Tyrrhenian 'Pirate' reputation. Like the Xebecs of old these ships could fly out of their hidden cove deployment, overwhelm and/or capture the enemy shipping then dive back into its hole before the escort could interfere.

[ img ]

Originally a three funnel design, the first funnel was trunked into the second when the new tripod mast and bridge system was fitted at almost the last minute.

Paired with the Cyprus Class in Battleship Division One, the four ships were all at Gallipoli where three of the four were lost to mines in under ten minutes. The Turks had managed to lay a new mine field which the ships of the Tyrrhenian force were first to find. Only the Rhodes emerging still upright.

[ img ]

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Post subject: Re: The Last Pre-dreadnought battleship ChallengePosted: January 25th, 2020, 10:28 pm
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Location: Germany
Hi all

Just for clarification - one drawing per entry? No modifications/modernizations over the ship's service life?


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Armoured man
Post subject: Re: The Last Pre-dreadnought battleship ChallengePosted: January 25th, 2020, 10:50 pm
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one drawing per person is the same thing that was done in the gunboat challenge and I think it is the new standard for all
SB challenges in the future

Work list: 1. various pre-1900 Zipang ships 2. Haruryū class battlecruiser 3. Some protected cruisers and other miscellaneous projects

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Post subject: Re: The Last Pre-dreadnought battleship ChallengePosted: January 30th, 2020, 4:28 pm
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[ img ]

A French style Pre-dreadnought battleship


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Post subject: Re: The Last Pre-dreadnought battleship ChallengePosted: January 31st, 2020, 5:02 pm
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Joined: May 23rd, 2012, 1:01 pm
Location: Rome - Italy
Haki Class:

First and last class of pre-dreadnought battleships built for Koko no Kaigun. Namesake Haki was laid down domestically at toumachi Naval Arsenal in 1902 and Launched in 1905, lengthy building time and fitting out because of the inexpirienced yard led to a commissioning date as late as 1909. Ketsui was ordered abroad at Armstrong Withword Shipyards (Elswick), laid down in 1903, launched in 1904, completed in late 1906 and finally delivered to be commissioned into the fleet in January 1907.

[ img ]

Ketsui specifications as commissioned (1907)
-Displacement: 15.651 t normal, 16.964 t full load
-LOA: 136,80m (448,82ft)
-LWL: 136,80m (448,82ft)
-beam: 23,10m (75,79ft)
-mean draft: 8,10m (26,57ft)
-Machinery: 20x Coal firing boilers, 2x Reciprocating triple-expansion steam engines, 17.360 ihp, 2 shafts
-Speed: 19 kts
-Range: 10.000nm at 10 kts
-Armour: main belt 241mm (9.5''), upper belt 152mm (6''), ends 114mm (4.5''), transverse bulkheads 25mm (1''), main deck 51mm (2''), quarterdeck 51mm (2''), forecastle 51mm (2''), main turrets face 266mm (10.5''), main turrets sides 241mm (9.5''), main turrets roof and back 63mm (2.5''), barbettes 228mm (9''), secondary turrets face 177mm (7'') secondary turrets sides 152mm (6''), secondary turrets roof and back 51mm (2'') secondary turrets barbettes 152mm (6''), casemate shields 152mm (6''), superstructure gun ports 76mm (3''), conning tower 254mm (10'') forward 127mm (5'') aft.
-Armament: 4x 305mm/45 guns (2x2), 8x 203mm/45 (4x2), 10x 152mm/40 (10x1), 8x 76mm/40 (8x1), 4x 47mm/43 (4x1), 4x 450mm torpedo tubes.
-Complement: 804

(small tweak on February 3rd. I had forgot boat boom and life rings)

My Worklist
Sources and documentations are the most welcome.

-Koko Kyouwakoku (Republic of Koko)
-Koko's carrier-based aircrafts of WWII
-Koko Kaiun Yuso Kaisha - KoKaYu Line (Koko AU spinoff)
-Koko - Civil Aviation

Last edited by BB1987 on February 3rd, 2020, 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: The Last Pre-dreadnought battleship ChallengePosted: January 31st, 2020, 9:15 pm
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Very nice drawings here! Well done!

PS: The Ibiza had a flavor of italian Pisa - greek Averroff which made it a very pleasing design.

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Post subject: Re: The Last Pre-dreadnought battleship ChallengePosted: January 31st, 2020, 11:20 pm
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Joined: May 27th, 2019, 5:02 am
Location: Canmore, Alberta, Canada
[ img ]

Captain Class Battleships
HMS Captain
HMS Hero
16,758 tons (normal)
Installed Power:
2 triple expansion steam engines
2 screws
Designed Speed:
24 knots (actual 22 -23 knots)
Length (o/a): 473’
Beam: 75’
Draught: 27.5”
4 x 12“(2 x 2)
16 x 7.5” (16 x 1)
12 x 12pdr (12 x 1)
4 x 3pdr (4 x 1)
2 x 18” Torpedo tubes
Main Belt: 8”
Bulkheads: 8”- 10”
Barbettes: 10”
Turrets: 8”-11”
Casements: 7”
Decks: 1” – 2.25”

Most look to the historic arrival of HMS Dreadnought as the defining moment in the technological surge in innovative battleship design in the early years of the Twentieth Century. However, one might well argue that the Royal Navy’s Captain class battleships were indeed an important last step in reaching the final design determinations to would materialize in HMS Dreadnought.

One of the main fallacies in the Dreadnought saga was that the Royal Navy was solely responsible for bringing about the era that would bear Dreadnought’s name. The fact is that while HMS Dreadnought was the first of that type to enter service, that honour had come about not so much by the collective advances in British designs, but more so due to the fact that the more expedient building times of British builders would allow for an earlier completion than the builders of other nations.

If one was to begin considering the plausibility of the design features that would collectively manifest in HMS Dreadnought were in fact an amalgamation of new concepts that were in fact already present in both previous construction, as well as new vessels already building at the time of Dreadnought’s launch. So while the Captain class did not include all the features that would be brought together in the Dreadnought, by way of certain design functions included, they could be well considered a proper stepping stone to that historic ship.

Most importantly in actual fact, if one was to look at the King Edward VII class as the last of the Royal Navy’s true pre-dreadnought battleships, the Captain class was the second step in the process, as the preceding Sultan class had already taken the first step in the movement toward the final Dreadnought design.

The Sultan class would be the first attempt at stepping away from a mixed heavy caliber main battery, when it stepped away from the heavier 9.2” main battery and replaced it with the smaller, but more numerous 7.5” battery in that design. While the main reason for this seemingly retrograde development was simply to provide for more displacement and space within the design for the increased size of the engineering spaces.

However, an interesting side effect of this process was that by choosing the smaller caliber that was better able to counter both smaller cruisers and torpedo craft than the heavier 9.2” battery might have been. As well as that, by way of the reduction in caliber to something more akin to smaller cruiser-type armaments, they had in fact reverted to a standardized single large caliber main battery.

The armoured scheme in the Sultan design would see reductions as well in an effort to keep the overall size and costs within parameters. While the armoured scheme was reduced, it was felt that it would still provide an adequate level of protection in most situations envisioned for these ships.

By far, the most important feature of the Sultan class was its increase in power to allow for a noticeable increase in designed speed. The end result of this would see a design speed of an unheard 22.5 knots. In actual usage, not much more than 21 knots could be held for extended periods without risking straining the engines.

Fresh testing results from the Admiralty testing facility had delivered novel new data on hull form and dimensions would become available after the original design of the Sultan class was approved. While in lower speed vessels, such information would be of limited value, it was felt that this new data might well provide significant improvements if incorporated into the Sultan design.

With the construction of the first pair of Sultan’s had already commenced, they would be allowed to proceed as per the original design. However, the second pair would have their design re-structured to take full advantage of the new information. The result would be the two ship Captain class.

While these classes were innovative based on its higher designed speed, having that tactical advantage came at a price, which was paid for by reductions in armament and protection. At the time of the launch of HMS Sultan (the first of these ships to wet her keel), they were collectively the largest designs ever built for the Royal Navy up to that time.

Once in service, the Captain class would prove out to be a solid workable design, as were the previous Sultan’s. While not perfect, these ships would prove out to be as good as most, if not all comparable design dreadnoughts from other nations. Some would be argued to be a better design, while others worse, but in the end the matter would be somewhat mute, and in most cases the many designs would all perform to the best of their crews abilities, and the Royal Navy’s Captain class would be no different.

While in all other aspects, there would be little to choose between the two classes. However, by way of their new hull form alone, the Captain class would achieve an additional 1.5 knots additional speed over the Sultan’s in most situations. While these four ships would spend large portions of their operational history operating together, there would be certain deployments where the Captain’s would be set out as a result of their better operational parameters.

An issue with both classes was that while operating at or near their maximum speeds, the would consume their coal stocks at prodigious rates- however at more normal cruising speeds they would prove to be some of the most economical steamers in the RN, with the newer Captain’s holding a noticeable advantage even over the Sultan’s.

With their increased designed speed being their most famous feature, that point deserves a somewhat longer description. The design speed of the Captain class, while reachable, would prove out to be unsustainable for extended periods, however they would easily hold 22 knots for longer periods. At anything over 21 knots they would clean out their coal stocks at prodigious rates, however at normal cruising speeds, these ships would prove out to be among the most economical steamers in the fleet.

As to other aspects of the design, the Captain class were for the most part similar to previous designs for the Royal Navy. While somewhat wet forward, and with a tendency to flood the forward casements in a seaway without additional shielding, they would prove out to be steady gun platforms, good station keepers and at the same time quite maneuverable, with little loss of speed while turning. Their crews found them to be quite habitable by the standards of the day, and they would trend toward being ‘happy ships’ for the most part.

By way of their speed, they would prove out the theory built upon a portion of the battle line having a higher speed could right well deliver certain tactical advantages. However, even more importantly, even before they were launched, it would become one of the world’s most poorly held secrets that these ships would be ‘armoured cruiser killer extraordinaire’s’.

This last point is rather mute, for while at the time of their launch such considerations were valid, by the time of the Great War, it was rather unimportant, given naval developments by that time. Other than in two instances which were rather more by necessity or chance than any other measure, there would be little concerted effort to use these ships for that purpose. All four ships would see service with the Grand Fleet acting together, as well as operating as heavy support for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Cruiser squadrons from 1915 until the spring of 1916 when those big cruisers were stood out from the Grand Fleet for secondary duties.

HMS Hero would be the first of the class join the RN and would initially serve as the flagship of the Home Fleet, being joined there by the HMS Captain in the waning months of 1906. From there, they would see service both in the Atlantic and Mediterranean fleets, however they would return to home waters regularly.

While they would soon fall into the shadow of HMS Dreadnought, and the several similar and related designs that followed, the Captain’s were still considered as a valuable component of the Royal Navy. By way of their higher operational speeds which gave them the ability to operate within the tactical parameters of the new dreadnought designs, they would well prove their worth.

In particular, after the Parliamentary Crisis of 1909, and its related negative impact on the Royal Navy by way of sorting through First Sea Lord Fisher’s discredited design policies, just having the Captain class available would go some way to hold the line in comparative strength with Germany’s High Seas Fleet in those crucial years from 1910 to late 1913 as British building programs reached their stride and brought the levels of modern dreadnought types for the RN back to more acceptable levels.

While serving with the Home Fleet, both the Sultan’s and the Captain’s would be deployed on occasion to serve with the Plymouth Flying squadron and be held ready for use in distant waters on short notice. Such deployments would continue even after the beginning of the Great War.

By far, the most famous battle that the Captain’s participated in was the Battle of Easter Island on October 27th of 1914. Elements of the Plymouth Flying Squadron under the command of Admiral Herbert Heath (which included HMS Captain and HMS Hero), would play the anvil to the hammer provided by Admiral George Patey’s Australian squadron in the destruction of the High Seas Fleet’s East Asia squadron at that battle.

By the spring of 1916, these two classes would no longer be serving in the Grand Fleet, and would shift their time between the Flying Squadron, the Channel Fleet and Bombardment duties along the coast of Belgium. By the fall of 1916. While fulfilling bombardment missions off Belgium, both the Sultan class would be lost, HMS Sans Pareil to a mine and HMS Sultan to a U-Boat’s torpedo.

HMS Captain and HMS Hero would survive the Great War, with both being decommissioned in the fall of 1916 to await their fates. HMS Hero would be sold to the breaker’s in the late summer of 1917, however HMS Captain would have a more interesting fate.

HMS Captain would serve out many more years as a stationary training hulk as part of a new training establishment which would be set up at Rosyth for Sea Cadets from across the British Isles and around the Empire. HMS Captain would serve in this duty until 1938. During the Second Great War, the old veteran would serve as an accommodation hulk, and would finally be sold to the breaker’s in 1947.

The Captain’s would never be considered as one of the greatest or most valuable fighting ships to serve in the Royal Navy, they did serve well throughout the Great War. While their crews sailed in the lee of the great dreadnoughts, they always ‘held their place in the line’ and performed as expected whenever called upon.

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Post subject: Re: The Last Pre-dreadnought battleship ChallengePosted: February 1st, 2020, 1:54 pm
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Hello everyone!

The class was in need of a redraw anyway, so here she is:

LT Bunreacht
Around the turn of the century, most naval powers followed the trend towards a heavier secondary battery on battleships. The Thiarians were not impressed with mixed batteries as on HMS King Edward VII or USS Virginia due to fire control concerns, but an increase in secondary battery caliber would be welcome. As the Saoirse-class carried a relatively moderate secondary battery on a big hull, resulting in excellent stability, there obviously were weight reserves which could be tapped, and the first studies for a follow-on class simply increased secondary caliber to 195mm without altering the ships otherwise. Although this would have worked, the resulting pay-off in stability was deemed inacceptable, and an increase in displacement of 1.000 tons was built into the final draft. Additionally, several improvements which would later be retrofitted into the Saoirse-class were also implemented, most notably abandoning the ram and the military masts, and raising the forecastle. The bow was modified to optimize seakeeping; the Bunreacht-class were the first Thiarian battleships with a flared sickle-bow, which would later become a typical feature of Thiarian dreadnoughts. Machinery was upgraded to deliver 18.000 ihp for 19 knots at normal draught. Under the 1898 programme, construction was slated to begin in spring 1902 and spring 1903, respectively; both were laid down on schedule. LT Bunreacht (Constitution) was built by the Abernenui Arsenal, LT Poblacht (Republic) by the private yard CSCA (Gaelic: Comhlacht Seoirseacht na Cruach Aonta [United Steel Construction Company]) at Corcaigh. The Arsenal completed Bunreacht within 47 months. She was the first Thiarian battleship completed in the new ocean gray livery with its distinct greenish hue, which is – with very minor modifications – still in use today.
[ img ]

Both ships were commissioned in 1907 and fully worked up when the Second Brazilian war started (the Thiarians would not have started the war if they had not been), and Bunreacht became fleet flagship; both ships were considerably damaged in the battle of Tranacorr, where they assisted in sinking four Brazilian battleships. When Thiaria entered the Great War in late April 1916, the pre-dreadnoughts were unleashed upon the Patagonian Falklands, bombarding their garrison into submission in preparation for the Thiarian invasion. During this operation, Bunreacht flew the flag of Rear Admiral Trendean, who was promoted to Thiaria’s youngest Vice Admiral after the conquest of the Falklands. The fleet then blockaded the Patagonian coast and managed to choke off most traffic in and out except for a trickle which took the Beagle Canal (although at great peril, because as many ships were lost there by stranding or to storms than to the guns and torpedoes of the Thiarian navy). This arduous duty was punctuated by Patagonian attempts to attack the Thiarians with light forces and subs, which however were ineffective because of the appalling weather conditions prevailing in the area and led to high losses for the attackers in a series of pitched fights with Thiarian light forces. Patagonian practice of leaving floating mines behind when retreating from such sweeps nearly resulted in the loss of Bunreacht, who hit one in late July. During repairs, she was fitted with director control for her armament, becoming the prototype for such fire control in the Thiaian fleet. By the time she returned to service in late October, Patagonian resistance was pretty much crushed, and in November, Bunreacht and Poblacht went out to hunt Commonwealth convoys in the eastern South Atlantic, together with the armoured cruisers Urgharda and Cuiteamh. Around Christmas, they caught one which was escorted by the decrepit battleship HMS Prince George and sank her, while the armoured cruisers scattered the convoy and sank nine out of twenty merchants. In late January, another such raid cost the British the large cruiser HMS Powerful, but she gave the Thiarians such a fight that her convoy managed to escape. In March 1917, the new British C-in-C Atlantic VAdm Goodenough finally managed to catch the Thiarian raiding force – at this point consisting of Poblacht, Bunreacht and the armoured cruisers Muirbhreid and Dunchla – with his super-superdreadnoughts Trafalgar and Agincourt and the Patagonian battlecruiser Unicorn in the battle of the South Sandwich Sea, sinking Bunreacht and Dunchla. Over a thousand Thiarian sailors perished in the bloodiest defeat of the Thiarian fleet in the whole war.

Displacement: 15.900 ts normal, 18.750 ts maximum
Powerplant: 3-shaft triple expansion (four bladed screw on center shaft, three-bladed screws on wing shafts), 18 Belleville watertube boilers, 18.000 ihp
Design speed: 19 knots
Dimensions: Lcwl 137,80m; LOA 139,50m; beam 26,00m; mean draught 8,10m
Protection: Belt 250mm KC-equivalent (upper strake 165mm); three transverse bulkheads 240mm each; decks 20mm (upper) +50mm (lower); torpedo bulkhead 30mm; main turrets 280mm all-round; secondary turrets 165mm all-round
Armament: 2x2 305mm L/40, 6x2 195mm L/50, 16x1 65mm L/50, 4x 450mm TT submerged
Crew: 720


Last edited by Garlicdesign on February 3rd, 2020, 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: The Last Pre-dreadnought battleship ChallengePosted: February 3rd, 2020, 6:13 am
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Joined: November 8th, 2010, 3:07 pm
Location: Norseland
In real life the US Navy went for a smaller and lighter battleship for its last pre-dreadnought. My design is what it should have been. At 140m long, and 16k tons, the Mississippi class is armed with 4x12in guns, and a secondary battery of 8x10in guns, with 12x6in guns as tertiary gun battery and 18x3in guns for use against motor torpedo boats. Speed is 18,5 knots. The armor belt is 12in thick, with a casemate armor at 6inches. I decided to use 10in guns, as other nations were already putting 9,2in and 9,4in guns as their seconday batteries, and with the US practice of going with fewer, but larger, I took the guns from the Tennesee to act as a secondary/main gun arnament. At the expected 3-5km range these guns were capable of punching through battleship armor. Otherwise, this design is not in any way unusual for a US pre/semi-dreadnought.

USS Mississippi BB-24 as commisioned in 1908:
[ img ]

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