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MC Spoilt B'stard
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 4th, 2018, 11:43 am
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heuhen wrote: *
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Huehen do you have any info about the new norwegian subs? Type 212CD?
It is rumored in Dutch naval forums that there are talks with the germans about joining the programme but i cant find any reliable info about the boats.

I have found info that they will be limited to +/- 1500 ton due to operations in the Fjords but i also found info that they would be arround 50% larger then the current Type 212's.
After my understanding they will be an improvement on Ula class, and Ula class was build to be able to operate in the open ocean, as well as in the fjords. and it's quit often they operate North of Lofoten, and all the way up to Svalbard. so I belive the 212CD would be an ocean going with enough flexibility to operate in the fjords. If Norway was only focusing on the fjords, we had gone Swedish. (when we are invited to exercise in US, Ula class, travel by it's own power over the pond. last time a Swedish submarine went over, it was transported on a ship, probably for comfort, for the crew)



after searching around on the Norwegian version of the Type 212CD submarines, the list is following:

- they are still working on finding partners and how deliver equipment for the submarines, and signing contracts.
- signing contract with the shipyard itself, first in 2019
- Service on Type 212CD both German and Norwegian, will be in Norway. if that include other German submarines in the 212-series, I don't know.
- the submarines are supposed to be in service, 2026-2030
- There are some technology, that are under development or will be improved for this class
- These submarines will be equipped with submarine version of Naval strike missiles. (development contract with Germany are already signed)

other than that, it is still to early. they haven't yet signed contract with the shipyard.
Thanks for the update, i still do no believe that Type 212CD is the way to go for the RNLN with its walrus replacement. The fact that they can sail across the ocean is good but ''we'' need a sub that can operate in the ocean for long periods (due to the caribbean islands). I was reading a Norwegian media site about the 212CD's and it was stated they could stay underwater for upto 18 days.

If i compare the range of the Ula class with our Walrus boats its a shocking conclusion that they cant be replaced by the same boat unless one of the navys changes course on its sub operations:
Ula : 5.000 nm / 9,300 km @ 8 knots
Walrus : 10,000 nm / 18,500 km @ 9 knots

The Type 212 is getting closer but still not enough as i estimate that the new boats will have a even greater range
212 : 8,000 nm / 15,000 km @ 8 knots
A26 Oceanic ER : > 10,000 nm / 18,500 km @ 10 knots

Also the dive depths are a big difference
Ula : +200 m
Walrus: + 300 m (official depth is classified)
212: 250 m / 700 m crushdepth
A26: 200 m

The problem is in the dive depth for the dutch cooperation between Damen / Saab, the walrus class uses a double hull instead of the A26's (and 212's) single hull.
Damen already hinted to a single hull for the new subs (cheaper) but if the navy requested a double hull it would be possible with the design.

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 4th, 2018, 2:36 pm
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well Ula class is primarily designed to operate along the Norwegian coastline, Norway doesn't have a far-away place...

Note dive depth on Ula class, according to Norwegian side:
- dive depth in peace time; 250 meter
- maximum allowed dive depth, is estimated to 500+ meters (max depth is classified) type 209 have an test depth at 500 meters (ula is a type 210)

they are build for different scenario, Ula was designed to stop a Soviet Navy in the North.


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MC Spoilt B'stard
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 4th, 2018, 5:36 pm
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heuhen wrote: *
well Ula class is primarily designed to operate along the Norwegian coastline, Norway doesn't have a far-away place...

Note dive depth on Ula class, according to Norwegian side:
- dive depth in peace time; 250 meter
- maximum allowed dive depth, is estimated to 500+ meters (max depth is classified) type 209 have an test depth at 500 meters (ula is a type 210)

they are build for different scenario, Ula was designed to stop a Soviet Navy in the North.
Well the Norwegian minister of defence just welcomed the Netherlands to join the Type 212CD programme. There are some talks going on between Germany and the Netherlands to make a deal with the subs and frigate programmes. The rumors are that TKMS is pushing to build the 212CD's for the RNLN in exchange the German navy would allow dutch MOD to have influance in its MKS-180 programme where the M-frigate replacement ships will be purchaced instead of the planned larger ships.

Looks like TKMS is desperately looking for orders after losing the MKS-180 bid to the 2 contenders that are still in the race. There will be 1 big problem with the deal, the final design needs to be ready in July 2018 but the dutch MOD is currently studying if they will go for coastal or ocean subs to be finished somewhere in 2018 and after that study a 2nd study can be started for further details on the required capabilities and that can take time until somewhere in 2019.

There might be a solution for the Netherlands to join the Type 212CD in a way; TKMS will design a Type 216 variant to dutch specifications with a large part of commonality with the Type 212CD's where possible.

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rd77
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 5th, 2018, 11:49 am
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interesting article on the failure of the Germany navy to deploy one of their 212A's to the Gulf of Aden two years ago. Article is in Dutch, but main points are:

"Somali waters too hot and too far for German submarines"

-The sub would be carried to Somalia in a heavy lift ship, rather than sail on her own keel
-A support ship would have to stay close to the operating sub at all times
-Water temparatures in Somali waters (circa 30 centigrade) would impede proper operation of the propulsion system, range would be significantly reduced

In contrast, the existing Walrus-class subs reached Somalia on their own and did not need a support ship close by

In fairness, the article does point out that these problems concerned the U32/33/34 and not the U35/36 which were not yet available at the time

https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/Duitse- ... 40316.html


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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 5th, 2018, 11:57 am
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Another thing Germany have learned the hard way was parts..., During the 80-90's Germany decided that instead of having stores full of parts, they was going to produce parts when they need.... Now all 6 German submarine are in for service/repair and waiting for parts... That need to be produced first.

That a problem we do not have with Type 210 Ula Class, one of the early upgrade it received, was an improvement to the cooling systems. And that is something Norway most likely will take with them to type 212CD, since Norway always send either a surface ships or a submarine to anyplace in the world under NATO or FN flag. For example HNoMS Fridtjof Nansen have an improved air-conditioning system and a larger cooling system but. Also a additional freezer and cooling room for food-storage, since it operated in somalian water and in Mediterranean water, when it's not home in Norway


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MC Spoilt B'stard
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: August 10th, 2018, 11:57 pm
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For anyone who's interested in the drawing of the future Combat Support Ship (CSS) of the RNLN.
There are about 10 designs left untill the final design will be chosen in 2019, here are the 3 that were published recently.


[ img ]

[ img ]

[ img ]


Keep in mind that there are still arround 7 more designs that have not been showed to the public. The CSS will be build by Damen Shipyards with a lenght arround 180 m and a hangar for 2 NH-90 helicopters and 20 to 24 containers (20 ft). There are rumors that the German Navy wants to join the project to replace the tankers Rhön & Spessart by 2025.

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MihoshiK
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: August 11th, 2018, 7:39 am
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heuhen wrote: *
Another thing Germany have learned the hard way was parts..., During the 80-90's Germany decided that instead of having stores full of parts, they was going to produce parts when they need.... Now all 6 German submarine are in for service/repair and waiting for parts... That need to be produced first.

That a problem we do not have with Type 210 Ula Class, one of the early upgrade it received, was an improvement to the cooling systems. And that is something Norway most likely will take with them to type 212CD, since Norway always send either a surface ships or a submarine to anyplace in the world under NATO or FN flag. For example HNoMS Fridtjof Nansen have an improved air-conditioning system and a larger cooling system but. Also a additional freezer and cooling room for food-storage, since it operated in somalian water and in Mediterranean water, when it's not home in Norway
The Dutch Army sometimes has that issue too. The Fennek recon cars have an amazing optronics suite... As long as it doesn't break. When it does, new parts have to be manufactured, because the DoD was stupid enough not to order many spares.

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Rhade
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: August 12th, 2018, 12:13 pm
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That's sadly became a rather typical thing in those days. Parts are bought only in case they are needed, sometimes there is a number of them in reserve but often very small one. Budget cuts, limited funds ect. elements are costly so acquiring of them in larger number is hard and often hard to explain to government overseers. Because why you buy something that will gather dust in magazines... that's a waste of public funds!

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MC Spoilt B'stard
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: September 27th, 2018, 4:03 pm
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An other update on the CSS;

The Commander of the RNLN posted on twitter the following message and artist impression
Quote:
Original (Dutch)
Tijdens mijn bezoek aan de Defensie Materieel Organisatie (DMO) kreeg ik laatste ontwerp van onze nieuwe tanker in beeld, wordt super mooi, effectief en zo groen mogelijk schip. Nu de naam nog, blijf gissen, raden jullie toch nooit!
Quote:
Translation
During my visit to the Defense Materiel Organization (DMO) I got the latest design of our new tanker in the picture, being super nice, effective and as green as possible. Now that the name is still there, keep guessing, you never guess!
[ img ]


The part of the name is his answer to a dutch news article where the newspaper asked the people to comeup with a ''undisputed'' name for the new ship. Old heroes cant be used anymore they think, due to the thins they did when they were alive.

What we see is a ship fitted with:
- 1x 30 mm Marlin WS
- 1x 30 mm Goalkeeper CIWS (to be replaced later on)
- 2x 12,7 mm Hitrole RHMG's
- 4x MASS decoy launcher by Rheinmetall (also shown on M-frigate replacement concepts)
- 2x RAS position
- 2x Deck cranes with +/- 20 x 20 ft containers

The radar is the Thales NS-100 / NS-106 3D radar. The radar mast has been designed with the funnels inside instead of a separate set of funnels and a mast.

More info to follow (soon). For the name I hope they do not give in to the whining of a small group of people who want to erase the past.

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MC Spoilt B'stard
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: October 1st, 2018, 11:50 am
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For the new Mine countermeasures vessel's (MCMV's) there are only 3 left in the race, originaly 5 were left but Navantia (Spain) was rejected due to the lack of bank guarantees and Saab has withdrawn the offer due to the short terms of the contract. The offers that are still in the race are:
- Naval Group & ECA Group
- Damen Shipyards & Atlas Elektronik & Elbit Systems
- Chantiers de l'Atlantique & Socarenam & EDR Antwerp & Thales Belgium (under the name Sea Naval Solutions)


Non of the offers has been made public only some concept art by Damen and Sea Naval Solutions. The decision is expected in December.

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