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klagldsf
Post subject: Re: SWATH Patrol Craft (Guided Missile) - Opinions?Posted: September 3rd, 2010, 11:30 pm
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Well, the Millennium Gun is built around the Bushmaster....


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Thiel
Post subject: Re: SWATH Patrol Craft (Guided Missile) - Opinions?Posted: September 3rd, 2010, 11:41 pm
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Nope, it's based on the 35mm 353MK later renamed the KD series. Unlike the Bushmaster, it's a revolver cannon and it has a firing rate of approx. 1000 rpm, compared to the Bushmaster III's 200 rpm.

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klagldsf
Post subject: Re: SWATH Patrol Craft (Guided Missile) - Opinions?Posted: September 4th, 2010, 12:01 am
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Yeah, I know of the Millennium Gun's rate of fire (hence its name but didn't know the Bushmaster's was so...low.

Ah well, learn something every day. Ether way, turreted Bushmasters are more than adequate for an OPV.


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Thiel
Post subject: Re: SWATH Patrol Craft (Guided Missile) - Opinions?Posted: September 4th, 2010, 12:03 am
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Four does seem a bit excessive though.

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Stugger
Post subject: Re: SWATH Patrol Craft (Guided Missile) - Opinions?Posted: September 4th, 2010, 1:44 am
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The idea was to have two guns have a bead on every approach angle despite the non-centerline location of the mounts.

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Stugger
Post subject: Re: SWATH Patrol Craft (Guided Missile) - Opinions?Posted: September 4th, 2010, 6:57 pm
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klagldsf - Thanks for the lengthy post. It has pointed out that I did not ever state the foundational thinking that went on before I tried this. I will organize some thoughts and post them later this weekend. However, on the RHIB front, I picked a Customs boat as the basis because it has Visit, Board, Search, and Sieze as one of its primary missions. The source website I am using (among others) has this to say ...

"A starboard boarding and rescue platform runs between the main deck and the sea surface providing safe access to low floating objects. The ships also carry 8.5m RIBs capable of more than 40 knots and launched from a C frame with a wave compensating winch system"

I tried to capture the rescuse platform with those light grey "U" shpaed lines amidships. You can see it in the picture of the Customs boat.

Thanks for the comments.

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Stugger
Post subject: Re: SWATH Patrol Craft (Guided Missile) - Opinions?Posted: September 4th, 2010, 10:35 pm
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The US Navy is currently suffering from having nothing but very expensive warships. Arleigh Burke destroyers are excellent warships, but cost upwards of a $1B now. Submarines - 2-3x as much. The new LPDs are incredibly expensive as well. Carriers and flattop amphibs - I can't even count that high. The US Navy shipbuilding budget is in the mid-teen billion range. If we always want our ships to be the best and handle the most severe threats - that is what you end up with. Originally, the LCS was supposed to address the cost growth issue by being only $220M each. No such luck. Its over $550M without any mission modules. So here was what I was thinking - the US Navy needs a class of ships that is not half a billion dollars, that a young officer can take on as a Captain and learn without having hundreds of sailors and hundreds and millions of dollars worth of Government Furnished Equipment at risk. Of course, this ship will be less capable. The trick is to not make it worthless.

The OPV-type ships could serve this purpose (like the Royal Navy's Island & River classes), but their only real defense is their flag. A conventional opponent will think twice about attacking a US Navy vessel. But now we have non-state actors and unconventional opponents. An Israeli ship was hit by a Hezzbolah anti-ship cruise missile. Suicide boats blow up alongside tankers, etc.

So the proposed threat set for this class of ship could include:
1) A couple of Anti-ship Cruise Missiles (not the waves of them, for that you need Aegis and lost of space and $$)
2) Helicopters - These need to be kept out of rocket and gun range - preferrably out of Sea Skua type small missiles as well.
3) Attack aircraft - same thing as helicopters - keep them far enough away to force them to attack with threat 1) (ASCMs)
4) Small surface craft with HMG, light cannon, RPG, etc.
5) FAC - although if they launch their missiles at you you are back to threat 1).
6) Submarines

Your comments have convinced me that trying to handle 6 is going to be too much. The right answer is well known - ASW helicopters, bow and variable depth sonars - all of which are too big and expensive for what I am after here. Looking at the drawing, it appears that I have made the decks too high, therefore, my next revision will lower them a bit and I will go with the SDLS and ESSM weapons (with the lighter illuminator). So how does this design handle the proposed threats?

1) ESSM is good at killing ASCM.
2) & 3) ESSM can reach out to "Local Area Defense" ranges
4) 30mm all around. If it looks a little too dangerous - ESSM has a secondary ASuW role.
5) ESSM has a secondary anti-ship capability, but this design would be vulnerable to something with a fairly large gun (> 3"). It could just stand-off and pound the Bulldog into submission. Would have to call for help in this case.
6) No longer handled organically - but I think having a limited capability sonar (not very expensive - maybe derived from a Mk-48 ADCAP torpedo) that can lash the water with active searches might be useful as a "beater" for the more traditional Navy's helicopters to make the kill.

I would like to keep the decent radar fit and plan on putting some realistic satellite communication antennas. That way, they can serve as radar pickets.

Cost of a vessel is a function of its unit cost and life cycle. Unit cost is kept low in this design by having a less capable radar and weapons fit (relative to Aegis) and no helicopter. Life cycle costs are addressed by diesel engines (vice gas turbines) and as small a crew as possible (although I suspect my original estimate is wrong). The use of an unconventional hull form maintains internal volume while shortening length by being so wide.

I'll post an updated drawing soon.

Do you think I should do the actual BORKUM itself as a "Real Design?"

Do you think I should show the below waterline picture? I have not because I haven't found a decent picture of what it would look like, and I would have to change it since this vessel will have greater tonnage than the original. It might help people first viewing this to understand it is not a conventional monohull.

Thanks for your continued interest and input.

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Thiel
Post subject: Re: SWATH Patrol Craft (Guided Missile) - Opinions?Posted: September 4th, 2010, 10:53 pm
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Stugger wrote:
Do you think I should do the actual BORKUM itself as a "Real Design?"
Yes

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That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error

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Novice
Post subject: Re: SWATH Patrol Craft (Guided Missile) - Opinions?Posted: September 5th, 2010, 5:48 am
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Quote:

Do you think I should do the actual BORKUM itself as a "Real Design?"
I second Thiel opinion "Yes", why not?

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Stugger
Post subject: Re: SWATH Patrol Craft (Guided Missile) - Opinions?Posted: September 8th, 2010, 5:20 am
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Thanks for the suggestion on the Borkum. I will give it a try in the "Real Design" forum. Hopefully they will be as helpful over there as you have been here.

Here's another rev. I downsized to the Self Defense Launch System and just ESSM. Got the smaller illuminator and fleshed out the satellite communications suite. Cleaned up some unneccessary "overhang" shading.

Any more feedback? Have I captured the key components of "Shipbucket" style?

If this were ever to be good enough to get uploaded to the "big show," I presume it would go under Alternate Universe, but not in one of the fictional navies. I have noticed that the naming of the file is important to the proper workings of the Shipbucket archive. Would this filename be "USA_OPV_Bullog", "USA_PB_Bulldog", or "USA_FS_Bulldog"?
Attachment:
USA_PC(G)-5_Bulldog_Rev2.png
Thanks for your help.

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