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Keisser
Post subject: Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934Posted: February 3rd, 2017, 6:12 pm
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Lot of people here told about those singles, but I want to admit them, too.
What if replace 6x1 254 mm turrets with 4x2 superfiring 203 mm? Your ship will obtain even more firepower among with reducing of displacement and sizes. If you want a cheap raider ship, it can have even 76 mm belt (or no armor at all, but it is risky), but 35-36 kts speed. It can catch any convoy and escape from any dangerous cruiser.
P.S. Hurrah, hurrah, for Bonnie Blue Flag!

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erik_t
Post subject: Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934Posted: February 3rd, 2017, 10:37 pm
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This is a beautiful drawing, and I appreciate that real consideration went into it.

Even if singles are silly :)


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Charguizard
Post subject: Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934Posted: February 4th, 2017, 3:06 am
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Allright! Thanks to your help, it seems our Furutaka-like device has come closer to being ready to hunt some Empire State convoys!
I redid the drawing as you can see in the first post, taking into consideration your recent imput:
- Made the turrets smaller (again), lowered the position of B turret and pushed both trios outwards to use up the long belt springsharp demanded.
- Used the available space left by pushing the armament outwards to place the forefunnel further forward, increase angles for the pom-pom, give more separation around the foremast, lengthen the bridge and add an extra boat (quite a lot!).
- Reduced funnel height.
- Reduced aft funnel width (serves only 4 boilers, forefunnel serves 6).
- Raised the bridge by one deck.
- Raised torpedo tubes by one deck.
- Added intake vents and ready ammo lockers for the 4.7"s (just because).
And yes Thiel, please let's ignore beeper-seekers (muh dog flying shotgun!), drill rockets and how Utah managed to build a Combat Zep larger than Hindenburg just a year after it seceded :roll:
Thank you everyone once again and tomorrow I'll post an updated springsharp report, 2 reports for the competing designs I had made (5xI 9.2" and 4xIII 8") and on Keisser's suggestion, a report for a 4xII 8" just for the heck of it.
Thanks for helping me make this silly, flawed concept kind of work!


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Hood
Post subject: Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934Posted: February 4th, 2017, 10:50 am
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It looks much better now, less cartoonish and more like a workable design.

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Charguizard
Post subject: Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934Posted: February 4th, 2017, 11:18 pm
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Like I said yesterday, I'm posting the latest updated SS report plus reports for two alternatives I had done while designing this ship (updated with new knowledge and brought to imperial measurements) and on Keisser's suggestion, a 4xII lightly armoured version of the original proposal (the 5xI one).
Also updated the drawing with a blast shield for Q turret (not likely to be of much use, but I felt like it had to be there), extra rigging and updated the B side.
Thank you everyone once more, making this concept sort of work makes me very proud.

1st Proposal, by John Brown & Co.:
Chickamauga, CSS Commerce Raider laid down 1933 (Engine 1934)

Displacement:
12.974 t light; 13.443 t standard; 14.587 t normal; 15.503 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
700,54 ft / 696,00 ft x 58,00 ft x 21,40 ft (normal load)
213,53 m / 212,14 m x 17,68 m x 6,52 m

Armament:
5 - 9,20" / 234 mm guns in single mounts, 380,08lbs / 172,40kg shells, 1900 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35,01lbs / 15,88kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (1x8 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
16 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1926 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2.337 lbs / 1.060 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130
12 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5,00" / 127 mm 683,00 ft / 208,18 m 6,50 ft / 1,98 m
Ends: 3,00" / 76 mm 7,00 ft / 2,13 m 6,50 ft / 1,98 m
6,00 ft / 1,83 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 5,00" / 127 mm 261,00 ft / 79,55 m 4,50 ft / 1,37 m
Main Belt covers 151 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 261,00 ft / 79,55 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4,70" / 119 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 5,00" / 127 mm
2nd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 129.254 shp / 96.424 Kw = 34,00 kts
Range 8.300nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2.060 tons

Complement:
663 - 862

Cost:
£5,773 million / $23,091 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 293 tons, 2,0 %
Armour: 3.505 tons, 24,0 %
- Belts: 1.129 tons, 7,7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 193 tons, 1,3 %
- Armament: 422 tons, 2,9 %
- Armour Deck: 1.760 tons, 12,1 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 3.718 tons, 25,5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5.392 tons, 37,0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.613 tons, 11,1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 0,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
17.330 lbs / 7.861 Kg = 44,5 x 9,2 " / 234 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
Metacentric height 2,6 ft / 0,8 m
Roll period: 15,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,78
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,22

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,591
Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,38 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,30 degrees
Stern overhang: -3,30 ft / -1,01 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25,00 ft / 7,62 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 23,00 ft / 7,01 m
- Mid (40 %): 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 21,50 ft / 6,55 m
- Stern: 21,00 ft / 6,40 m
- Average freeboard: 22,22 ft / 6,77 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 151,0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147,1 %
Waterplane Area: 29.277 Square feet or 2.720 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 517 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,22
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

John Brown & Co. proposal for a commerce raiding cruiser of about 15.000t.

2nd Proposal, by Vickers-Armstrongs:
Chickamauga, CSS Commerce Raider laid down 1933

Displacement:
14.357 t light; 14.937 t standard; 16.044 t normal; 16.930 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
699,56 ft / 696,00 ft x 69,00 ft x 22,40 ft (normal load)
213,23 m / 212,14 m x 21,03 m x 6,83 m

Armament:
12 - 8,00" / 203 mm guns (4x3 guns), 256,00lbs / 116,12kg shells, 1923 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (1x8 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
16 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1926 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3.473 lbs / 1.575 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 130
12 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5,50" / 140 mm 565,00 ft / 172,21 m 6,50 ft / 1,98 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 5,50" / 140 mm 290,00 ft / 88,39 m 3,50 ft / 1,07 m
Main Belt covers 125 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 290,00 ft / 88,39 m 5,50 ft / 1,68 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6,00" / 152 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 5,25" / 133 mm
2nd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0,50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3,50" / 89 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 113.840 shp / 84.925 Kw = 32,50 kts
Range 7.500nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1.993 tons

Complement:
712 - 926

Cost:
£6,294 million / $25,178 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 434 tons, 2,7 %
Armour: 4.014 tons, 25,0 %
- Belts: 1.065 tons, 6,6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 118 tons, 0,7 %
- Armament: 717 tons, 4,5 %
- Armour Deck: 2.114 tons, 13,2 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 3.317 tons, 20,7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.507 tons, 40,6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.687 tons, 10,5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 85 tons, 0,5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20.996 lbs / 9.524 Kg = 82,0 x 8,0 " / 203 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,05
Metacentric height 3,2 ft / 1,0 m
Roll period: 16,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,17

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,522
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,09 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,38 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7,00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3,50 ft / -1,07 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,00 ft / 8,84 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 24,00 ft / 7,32 m
- Mid (40 %): 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 21,00 ft / 6,40 m
- Stern: 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
- Average freeboard: 22,73 ft / 6,93 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 125,1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159,0 %
Waterplane Area: 32.651 Square feet or 3.033 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 614 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,98
- Longitudinal: 1,18
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Vickers-Armstrongs proposal for a multirole cruiser of about 15000t.

and 3rd Proposal, by Harland and Wolff, as proposed by Keisser:
Chickamauga, CSS Commerce Raider laid down 1933 (Engine 1934)

Displacement:
12.766 t light; 13.268 t standard; 14.451 t normal; 15.397 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
679,54 ft / 675,00 ft x 61,00 ft x 21,40 ft (normal load)
207,12 m / 205,74 m x 18,59 m x 6,52 m

Armament:
8 - 8,00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256,00lbs / 116,12kg shells, 1927 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (1x8 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
16 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1926 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2.449 lbs / 1.111 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
12 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4,00" / 102 mm 659,00 ft / 200,86 m 6,50 ft / 1,98 m
Ends: 3,00" / 76 mm 8,00 ft / 2,44 m 6,50 ft / 1,98 m
8,00 ft / 2,44 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 3,00" / 76 mm 263,00 ft / 80,16 m 4,50 ft / 1,37 m
Main Belt covers 150 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2,00" / 51 mm 263,00 ft / 80,16 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4,50" / 114 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 4,00" / 102 mm
2nd: 0,50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 130.783 shp / 97.564 Kw = 34,00 kts
Range 8.700nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2.129 tons

Complement:
658 - 856

Cost:
£5,818 million / $23,271 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 306 tons, 2,1 %
Armour: 3.078 tons, 21,3 %
- Belts: 832 tons, 5,8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 195 tons, 1,3 %
- Armament: 420 tons, 2,9 %
- Armour Deck: 1.631 tons, 11,3 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 3.762 tons, 26,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5.455 tons, 37,7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.685 tons, 11,7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 165 tons, 1,1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16.140 lbs / 7.321 Kg = 63,0 x 8,0 " / 203 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,07
Metacentric height 2,7 ft / 0,8 m
Roll period: 15,6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,12

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,574
Length to Beam Ratio: 11,07 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25,98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,30 degrees
Stern overhang: -3,30 ft / -1,01 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25,00 ft / 7,62 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 23,00 ft / 7,01 m
- Mid (40 %): 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 21,50 ft / 6,55 m
- Stern: 21,00 ft / 6,40 m
- Average freeboard: 22,22 ft / 6,77 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 152,4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149,5 %
Waterplane Area: 29.390 Square feet or 2.730 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 111 lbs/sq ft or 541 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,97
- Longitudinal: 1,24
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Harland and Wolff proposal for a commerce raiding cruiser of about 15.000t.


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APDAF
Post subject: Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934Posted: February 4th, 2017, 11:28 pm
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Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:42 am
This reminds me a lot of the Furutaka when she was first built.

And very good work for a first attempt

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Hood
Post subject: Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934Posted: February 5th, 2017, 10:59 am
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Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:07 am
The blast shield would be useful, especially since the aft 4.7in mounts restrict the aft firing arcs.

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eltf177
Post subject: Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934Posted: February 5th, 2017, 12:30 pm
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 5:03 pm
I notice all three of the new designs have the same belt problem as the original first design...


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JSB
Post subject: Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934Posted: February 5th, 2017, 3:23 pm
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Joined: January 21st, 2014, 5:33 pm
My thought about them,
Quote:
1st Proposal, by John Brown & Co.:
-5 guns will make long range salvoes hard and slow
Quote:
2nd Proposal, by Vickers-Armstrongs:
very heavy guns/protection for a raider
Quote:
3rd Proposal, by Harland and Wolff, as proposed by Keisser:
With them all,
- Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces = bad ?
- Torpedo Bulkhead, remove it not a battleship.
- Don't really like the Oct 2pdr position its arcs will be limited
- Could you drop the Cat and deck house one level?


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Charguizard
Post subject: Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934Posted: February 5th, 2017, 6:56 pm
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Joined: January 28th, 2017, 1:17 am
Location: Atacama desert
Thanks to everyone still paying attention to this, I feel we're almost done.

I keep making that mistake with the belt :( must've tweaked the engine slider and forgot to re-check for length. The one on the front page is spot on though!
Anyways, those are mostly there to show how I went about deciding the final configuration, I won't be going back to them to draw them or anything.
Although the Vickers one might see life as a large Cruiser for somebody else.

JSB: - Myōkō-class and Algérie both had TDS's, 58mm and 40mm + void/fuel compartments respectively. Mine will probably be ineffective against anything larger than 450mm/18" torps, and do nothing against under-hull magnetically detonated ones, but I feel it's useful to keep it, even if it only covers the machinery spaces.
- Now that you made me go back and check again, it seems pom-poms rarely got placed on the centerline, so I ditched the boat and widened the tower to fit two octuple pom-poms back to back! I'll run it through springsharp later but it shouldn't make much of a difference.
- Lowering the superstructure couldn't hurt much but it looks like too much effort to rearrange everything :|

Uploaded another corrected version to the front page, and I'll leave you here with sister-ship Tallahassee after a refit in 1937.
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