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CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934 http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=7503 |
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Author: | Keisser [ February 3rd, 2017, 6:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934 |
Lot of people here told about those singles, but I want to admit them, too. What if replace 6x1 254 mm turrets with 4x2 superfiring 203 mm? Your ship will obtain even more firepower among with reducing of displacement and sizes. If you want a cheap raider ship, it can have even 76 mm belt (or no armor at all, but it is risky), but 35-36 kts speed. It can catch any convoy and escape from any dangerous cruiser. P.S. Hurrah, hurrah, for Bonnie Blue Flag! |
Author: | erik_t [ February 3rd, 2017, 10:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934 |
This is a beautiful drawing, and I appreciate that real consideration went into it. Even if singles are silly |
Author: | Charguizard [ February 4th, 2017, 3:06 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934 |
Allright! Thanks to your help, it seems our Furutaka-like device has come closer to being ready to hunt some Empire State convoys! I redid the drawing as you can see in the first post, taking into consideration your recent imput: - Made the turrets smaller (again), lowered the position of B turret and pushed both trios outwards to use up the long belt springsharp demanded. - Used the available space left by pushing the armament outwards to place the forefunnel further forward, increase angles for the pom-pom, give more separation around the foremast, lengthen the bridge and add an extra boat (quite a lot!). - Reduced funnel height. - Reduced aft funnel width (serves only 4 boilers, forefunnel serves 6). - Raised the bridge by one deck. - Raised torpedo tubes by one deck. - Added intake vents and ready ammo lockers for the 4.7"s (just because). And yes Thiel, please let's ignore beeper-seekers (muh dog flying shotgun!), drill rockets and how Utah managed to build a Combat Zep larger than Hindenburg just a year after it seceded Thank you everyone once again and tomorrow I'll post an updated springsharp report, 2 reports for the competing designs I had made (5xI 9.2" and 4xIII 8") and on Keisser's suggestion, a report for a 4xII 8" just for the heck of it. Thanks for helping me make this silly, flawed concept kind of work! |
Author: | Hood [ February 4th, 2017, 10:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934 |
It looks much better now, less cartoonish and more like a workable design. |
Author: | Charguizard [ February 4th, 2017, 11:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934 |
Like I said yesterday, I'm posting the latest updated SS report plus reports for two alternatives I had done while designing this ship (updated with new knowledge and brought to imperial measurements) and on Keisser's suggestion, a 4xII lightly armoured version of the original proposal (the 5xI one). Also updated the drawing with a blast shield for Q turret (not likely to be of much use, but I felt like it had to be there), extra rigging and updated the B side. Thank you everyone once more, making this concept sort of work makes me very proud. 1st Proposal, by John Brown & Co.: Chickamauga, CSS Commerce Raider laid down 1933 (Engine 1934) Displacement: 12.974 t light; 13.443 t standard; 14.587 t normal; 15.503 t full load Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught 700,54 ft / 696,00 ft x 58,00 ft x 21,40 ft (normal load) 213,53 m / 212,14 m x 17,68 m x 6,52 m Armament: 5 - 9,20" / 234 mm guns in single mounts, 380,08lbs / 172,40kg shells, 1900 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring 12 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35,01lbs / 15,88kg shells, 1934 Model Dual purpose guns in deck mounts on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring 8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (1x8 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1930 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring 16 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1926 Model Machine guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts Weight of broadside 2.337 lbs / 1.060 kg Shells per gun, main battery: 130 12 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 5,00" / 127 mm 683,00 ft / 208,18 m 6,50 ft / 1,98 m Ends: 3,00" / 76 mm 7,00 ft / 2,13 m 6,50 ft / 1,98 m 6,00 ft / 1,83 m Unarmoured ends Upper: 5,00" / 127 mm 261,00 ft / 79,55 m 4,50 ft / 1,37 m Main Belt covers 151 % of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Torpedo Bulkhead: 2,00" / 51 mm 261,00 ft / 79,55 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 4,70" / 119 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 5,00" / 127 mm 2nd: 0,50" / 13 mm - - - Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 129.254 shp / 96.424 Kw = 34,00 kts Range 8.300nm at 14,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 2.060 tons Complement: 663 - 862 Cost: £5,773 million / $23,091 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 293 tons, 2,0 % Armour: 3.505 tons, 24,0 % - Belts: 1.129 tons, 7,7 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 193 tons, 1,3 % - Armament: 422 tons, 2,9 % - Armour Deck: 1.760 tons, 12,1 % - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 % Machinery: 3.718 tons, 25,5 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 5.392 tons, 37,0 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.613 tons, 11,1 % Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 0,4 % Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 17.330 lbs / 7.861 Kg = 44,5 x 9,2 " / 234 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09 Metacentric height 2,6 ft / 0,8 m Roll period: 15,1 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,78 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,22 Hull form characteristics: Hull has a flush deck Block coefficient: 0,591 Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 26,38 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,30 degrees Stern overhang: -3,30 ft / -1,01 m Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length): - Stem: 25,00 ft / 7,62 m - Forecastle (21 %): 23,00 ft / 7,01 m - Mid (40 %): 22,00 ft / 6,71 m - Quarterdeck (20 %): 21,50 ft / 6,55 m - Stern: 21,00 ft / 6,40 m - Average freeboard: 22,22 ft / 6,77 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 151,0 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147,1 % Waterplane Area: 29.277 Square feet or 2.720 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 517 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,98 - Longitudinal: 1,22 - Overall: 1,00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily John Brown & Co. proposal for a commerce raiding cruiser of about 15.000t. 2nd Proposal, by Vickers-Armstrongs: Chickamauga, CSS Commerce Raider laid down 1933 Displacement: 14.357 t light; 14.937 t standard; 16.044 t normal; 16.930 t full load Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught 699,56 ft / 696,00 ft x 69,00 ft x 22,40 ft (normal load) 213,23 m / 212,14 m x 21,03 m x 6,83 m Armament: 12 - 8,00" / 203 mm guns (4x3 guns), 256,00lbs / 116,12kg shells, 1923 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring 12 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1931 Model Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists on side, all amidships 8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (1x8 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1930 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring 16 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1926 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts Weight of broadside 3.473 lbs / 1.575 kg Shells per gun, main battery: 130 12 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 5,50" / 140 mm 565,00 ft / 172,21 m 6,50 ft / 1,98 m Ends: Unarmoured Upper: 5,50" / 140 mm 290,00 ft / 88,39 m 3,50 ft / 1,07 m Main Belt covers 125 % of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Torpedo Bulkhead: 2,00" / 51 mm 290,00 ft / 88,39 m 5,50 ft / 1,68 m - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 6,00" / 152 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 5,25" / 133 mm 2nd: 0,50" / 13 mm - - 4th: 0,50" / 13 mm - - - Armour deck: 3,50" / 89 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 113.840 shp / 84.925 Kw = 32,50 kts Range 7.500nm at 14,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 1.993 tons Complement: 712 - 926 Cost: £6,294 million / $25,178 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 434 tons, 2,7 % Armour: 4.014 tons, 25,0 % - Belts: 1.065 tons, 6,6 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 118 tons, 0,7 % - Armament: 717 tons, 4,5 % - Armour Deck: 2.114 tons, 13,2 % - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 % Machinery: 3.317 tons, 20,7 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.507 tons, 40,6 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.687 tons, 10,5 % Miscellaneous weights: 85 tons, 0,5 % Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 20.996 lbs / 9.524 Kg = 82,0 x 8,0 " / 203 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,05 Metacentric height 3,2 ft / 1,0 m Roll period: 16,3 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,73 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,17 Hull form characteristics: Hull has a flush deck Block coefficient: 0,522 Length to Beam Ratio: 10,09 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 26,38 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7,00 degrees Stern overhang: -3,50 ft / -1,07 m Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length): - Stem: 29,00 ft / 8,84 m - Forecastle (21 %): 24,00 ft / 7,32 m - Mid (40 %): 22,00 ft / 6,71 m - Quarterdeck (20 %): 21,00 ft / 6,40 m - Stern: 22,00 ft / 6,71 m - Average freeboard: 22,73 ft / 6,93 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 125,1 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159,0 % Waterplane Area: 32.651 Square feet or 3.033 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 614 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,98 - Longitudinal: 1,18 - Overall: 1,00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Vickers-Armstrongs proposal for a multirole cruiser of about 15000t. and 3rd Proposal, by Harland and Wolff, as proposed by Keisser: Chickamauga, CSS Commerce Raider laid down 1933 (Engine 1934) Displacement: 12.766 t light; 13.268 t standard; 14.451 t normal; 15.397 t full load Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught 679,54 ft / 675,00 ft x 61,00 ft x 21,40 ft (normal load) 207,12 m / 205,74 m x 18,59 m x 6,52 m Armament: 8 - 8,00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256,00lbs / 116,12kg shells, 1927 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring 12 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns (6x2 guns), 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1934 Model Dual purpose guns in deck mounts on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring 8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (1x8 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1930 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring 16 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1926 Model Machine guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts Weight of broadside 2.449 lbs / 1.111 kg Shells per gun, main battery: 150 12 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 4,00" / 102 mm 659,00 ft / 200,86 m 6,50 ft / 1,98 m Ends: 3,00" / 76 mm 8,00 ft / 2,44 m 6,50 ft / 1,98 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m Unarmoured ends Upper: 3,00" / 76 mm 263,00 ft / 80,16 m 4,50 ft / 1,37 m Main Belt covers 150 % of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Torpedo Bulkhead: 2,00" / 51 mm 263,00 ft / 80,16 m 10,00 ft / 3,05 m - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 4,50" / 114 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 4,00" / 102 mm 2nd: 0,50" / 13 mm - - - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 130.783 shp / 97.564 Kw = 34,00 kts Range 8.700nm at 14,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 2.129 tons Complement: 658 - 856 Cost: £5,818 million / $23,271 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 306 tons, 2,1 % Armour: 3.078 tons, 21,3 % - Belts: 832 tons, 5,8 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 195 tons, 1,3 % - Armament: 420 tons, 2,9 % - Armour Deck: 1.631 tons, 11,3 % - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 % Machinery: 3.762 tons, 26,0 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 5.455 tons, 37,7 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.685 tons, 11,7 % Miscellaneous weights: 165 tons, 1,1 % Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 16.140 lbs / 7.321 Kg = 63,0 x 8,0 " / 203 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,07 Metacentric height 2,7 ft / 0,8 m Roll period: 15,6 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,73 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,12 Hull form characteristics: Hull has a flush deck Block coefficient: 0,574 Length to Beam Ratio: 11,07 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 25,98 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,30 degrees Stern overhang: -3,30 ft / -1,01 m Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length): - Stem: 25,00 ft / 7,62 m - Forecastle (21 %): 23,00 ft / 7,01 m - Mid (40 %): 22,00 ft / 6,71 m - Quarterdeck (20 %): 21,50 ft / 6,55 m - Stern: 21,00 ft / 6,40 m - Average freeboard: 22,22 ft / 6,77 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 152,4 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149,5 % Waterplane Area: 29.390 Square feet or 2.730 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 111 lbs/sq ft or 541 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,97 - Longitudinal: 1,24 - Overall: 1,00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Harland and Wolff proposal for a commerce raiding cruiser of about 15.000t. |
Author: | APDAF [ February 4th, 2017, 11:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934 |
This reminds me a lot of the Furutaka when she was first built. And very good work for a first attempt |
Author: | Hood [ February 5th, 2017, 10:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934 |
The blast shield would be useful, especially since the aft 4.7in mounts restrict the aft firing arcs. |
Author: | eltf177 [ February 5th, 2017, 12:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934 |
I notice all three of the new designs have the same belt problem as the original first design... |
Author: | JSB [ February 5th, 2017, 3:23 pm ] | |||
Post subject: | Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934 | |||
My thought about them,
1st Proposal, by John Brown & Co.:
-5 guns will make long range salvoes hard and slow
2nd Proposal, by Vickers-Armstrongs:
very heavy guns/protection for a raider
3rd Proposal, by Harland and Wolff, as proposed by Keisser:
With them all,- Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces = bad ? - Torpedo Bulkhead, remove it not a battleship. - Don't really like the Oct 2pdr position its arcs will be limited - Could you drop the Cat and deck house one level? |
Author: | Charguizard [ February 5th, 2017, 6:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: CSS Chickamauga-class Commerce Raider, 1934 |
Thanks to everyone still paying attention to this, I feel we're almost done. I keep making that mistake with the belt must've tweaked the engine slider and forgot to re-check for length. The one on the front page is spot on though! Anyways, those are mostly there to show how I went about deciding the final configuration, I won't be going back to them to draw them or anything. Although the Vickers one might see life as a large Cruiser for somebody else. JSB: - Myōkō-class and Algérie both had TDS's, 58mm and 40mm + void/fuel compartments respectively. Mine will probably be ineffective against anything larger than 450mm/18" torps, and do nothing against under-hull magnetically detonated ones, but I feel it's useful to keep it, even if it only covers the machinery spaces. - Now that you made me go back and check again, it seems pom-poms rarely got placed on the centerline, so I ditched the boat and widened the tower to fit two octuple pom-poms back to back! I'll run it through springsharp later but it shouldn't make much of a difference. - Lowering the superstructure couldn't hurt much but it looks like too much effort to rearrange everything Uploaded another corrected version to the front page, and I'll leave you here with sister-ship Tallahassee after a refit in 1937. |
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