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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: Imperial Swedish NavyPosted: August 10th, 2016, 9:50 pm
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Do I read that correctly, tripple 150mm on the same beam as an Halland class...... the destroyer?

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Psilander
Post subject: Re: Imperial Swedish NavyPosted: August 10th, 2016, 9:54 pm
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That was the idea, I cant find any figuers on how wide the M/40 15,2cm tripple turret are

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Psilander
Post subject: Re: Imperial Swedish NavyPosted: August 10th, 2016, 10:03 pm
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Swedish Scout cruiser, built 1910 and of modified design 1915. Primary for protecting the lanes of communication and escort convoys around the emipre.

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Gripsholm, (Kungsholm, Drottningholm, Stockholm
Älvsborg, Visborg, Sveaborg, Olofsborg, Viborg)

Sweden Protected cruiser laid down 1910

Displacement:
2 116 t light; 2 208 t standard; 2 402 t normal; 2 558 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(400,26 ft / 393,70 ft) x 32,81 ft x (13,12 / 13,76 ft)
(122,00 m / 120,00 m) x 10,00 m x (4,00 / 4,19 m)

Armament:
10 - 4,13" / 105 mm 45,0 cal guns - 35,62lbs / 16,16kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1910 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 5,70lbs / 2,59kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1910 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 402 lbs / 182 kg
Main Torpedoes
2 - 18,9" / 480 mm, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m torpedoes - 1,023 t each, 2,046 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0,79" / 20 mm 223,92 ft / 68,25 m 6,89 ft / 2,10 m
Ends: 0,20" / 5 mm 120,54 ft / 36,74 m 6,89 ft / 2,10 m
49,25 ft / 15,01 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 0,20" / 5 mm 223,92 ft / 68,25 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,39" / 10 mm - 0,39" / 10 mm

- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1,38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3,94" / 100 mm, Aft 3,94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 16 156 shp / 12 053 Kw = 25,50 kts
Range 2 700nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 350 tons (75% coal)

Complement:
171 - 223

Cost:
£0,214 million / $0,854 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 116 tons, 4,8 %
- Guns: 112 tons, 4,7 %
- Weapons: 4 tons, 0,2 %
Armour: 313 tons, 13,0 %
- Belts: 70 tons, 2,9 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 0,4 %
- Armour Deck: 203 tons, 8,4 %
- Conning Towers: 30 tons, 1,3 %
Machinery: 716 tons, 29,8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 970 tons, 40,4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 286 tons, 11,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2 578 lbs / 1 170 Kg = 73,0 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 12,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 43 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,75
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,65

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,496 / 0,504
Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19,84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 22
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00 %, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forward deck: 40,00 %, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Aft deck: 25,00 %, 9,84 ft / 3,00 m, 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00 %, 9,84 ft / 3,00 m, 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 15,35 ft / 4,68 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112,5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120,7 %
Waterplane Area: 8 575 Square feet or 797 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 57 lbs/sq ft or 278 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,90
- Longitudinal: 2,64
- Overall: 1,00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[ img ]
Quote:
Gävle, (Kalmar, Sundsvall, Visby, Helsingborg, Helsingfors, Vasa, Nådendal, Wismar)
Sweden Protected cruiser laid down 1915

Displacement:
2 157 t light; 2 261 t standard; 2 402 t normal; 2 515 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(400,26 ft / 393,70 ft) x 32,81 ft x (13,12 / 13,58 ft)
(122,00 m / 120,00 m) x 10,00 m x (4,00 / 4,14 m)

Armament:
4 - 5,98" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,07lbs / 49,02kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1912 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 4,13" / 105 mm 45,0 cal guns - 35,62lbs / 16,16kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1915 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 5,70lbs / 2,59kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 669 lbs / 303 kg
Main Torpedoes
2 - 18,9" / 480 mm, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m torpedoes - 1,043 t each, 2,086 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0,79" / 20 mm 223,92 ft / 68,25 m 6,89 ft / 2,10 m
Ends: 0,20" / 5 mm 120,54 ft / 36,74 m 6,89 ft / 2,10 m
49,25 ft / 15,01 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 0,20" / 5 mm 223,92 ft / 68,25 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,98" / 25 mm 0,39" / 10 mm 0,39" / 10 mm
2nd: 0,39" / 10 mm - -

- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1,38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3,94" / 100 mm, Aft 3,94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 14 947 shp / 11 150 Kw = 25,00 kts
Range 2 600nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 254 tons (50% coal)

Complement:
171 - 223

Cost:
£0,322 million / $1,287 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 160 tons, 6,7 %
- Guns: 156 tons, 6,5 %
- Weapons: 4 tons, 0,2 %
Armour: 317 tons, 13,2 %
- Belts: 70 tons, 2,9 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0,5 %
- Armour Deck: 203 tons, 8,4 %
- Conning Towers: 30 tons, 1,3 %
Machinery: 593 tons, 24,7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 088 tons, 45,3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 245 tons, 10,2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2 880 lbs / 1 306 Kg = 26,9 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
Metacentric height 1,1 ft / 0,3 m
Roll period: 13,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 43 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1,23
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,68

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,496 / 0,502
Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19,84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 22
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00 %, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
- Forward deck: 40,00 %, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
- Aft deck: 25,00 %, 9,84 ft / 3,00 m, 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00 %, 9,84 ft / 3,00 m, 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
- Average freeboard: 15,35 ft / 4,68 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104,5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136,9 %
Waterplane Area: 8 575 Square feet or 797 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 314 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,88
- Longitudinal: 2,94
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: Imperial Swedish NavyPosted: August 10th, 2016, 10:13 pm
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Ship design wise, you might run into some problems then.....
I am not familiar with the use of springsharp, but generally speaking this means she is unstable if her center of gravity is higher then that of an Halland class, the reaction to gun recoil might be not what you would want and as well.
looking in the springsharp report, the GM is on the low side (I expect it to be more then twice that before I count an vessel as possible, based on historical reference) and I do not know what Springsharp does with radars and future weight for AA margins, all which is added later on and raises the center of gravity?
as for the turret weight: the barbette is, as far as I can do in a quick estimate, slightly over 6 meters in width. (that is the 150/53 M1942, I know nothing of the M1940, the step goes from 150/55 M1930 to 150/53 M1942?) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/632 ... dracht.png

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Imperial Swedish NavyPosted: August 11th, 2016, 12:27 am
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(This is not specifically aimed at you Psilander, but everyone who relies on Springsharp for their drawings.)

This is why I hate Springsharp. Any program stupid enough to allow you to have triple 6" on a 41 foot beam is completely ridiculous.

Please everyone, use a lot of common sense before relying on any figures given to you by a Springsharp report. If it has NOT been done in real life then there is probably a good reason for that.

If in doubt - ASK. There are plenty of people in Shipbucket who have knowledge of all things Naval.

Never, ever say, "Springsharp says I can".


For this - there is a large network of support members that give strength to the barbette that stop both the barbette and hull from twisting on recoil. Without it your guns are useless. You need enough breadth of hull at the point where you mount your turret/barbette for the strength beams to be fitted.

I had a quick look online for notes on the Emille Bertin which I remember reading was too lightly built for its triple 6" and had to be strengthened considerably. Bertin had a 16m (52.5 feet) beam.


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BB1987
Post subject: Re: Imperial Swedish NavyPosted: August 11th, 2016, 12:42 am
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the IJN Oyodo had triple 155mm guns and was 16,6m abeam, while the Tre-Kronor were 16,4m wide. I thus suspect that a bit over 16m is the minimum possible beam to safely mount a triple 6-inch turret (or more).

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Thiel
Post subject: Re: Imperial Swedish NavyPosted: August 11th, 2016, 1:27 am
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Krakatoa wrote:
(This is not specifically aimed at you Psilander, but everyone who relies on Springsharp for their drawings.)

This is why I hate Springsharp. Any program stupid enough to allow you to have triple 6" on a 41 foot beam is completely ridiculous.

Please everyone, use a lot of common sense before relying on any figures given to you by a Springsharp report. If it has NOT been done in real life then there is probably a good reason for that.

If in doubt - ASK. There are plenty of people in Shipbucket who have knowledge of all things Naval.

Never, ever say, "Springsharp says I can".


For this - there is a large network of support members that give strength to the barbette that stop both the barbette and hull from twisting on recoil. Without it your guns are useless. You need enough breadth of hull at the point where you mount your turret/barbette for the strength beams to be fitted.

I had a quick look online for notes on the Emille Bertin which I remember reading was too lightly built for its triple 6" and had to be strengthened considerably. Bertin had a 16m (52.5 feet) beam.
You shouldn't take its power claims as gospel either, especially with smaller ships.
I've been playing around with some hilariously overgunned torpedo boats recently and according to springsharp they need twice the installed power of similar real life ships. For example, the ~800t Danish Huitfeldt class had ~25khp for a top speed of about 36kt while Springsharp claims it needs 52khp.

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erik_t
Post subject: Re: Imperial Swedish NavyPosted: August 11th, 2016, 3:24 am
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As with any limited computational tool, thoughtful use can teach the user something and careless use can confuse the user and lead them far from the truth.

Springsharp was designed and written basically for inter-war displacement hulls, with conventional hydrodynamics of the era, of the 5000-30000 ton sort of class. Deviation from the bounds for which the interpolants were constructed will necessarily lead the user astray, and it is up to the person running the program to know whether or not they're asking Springsharp something the latter is designed to compute to a reasonable degree of accuracy.

Garbage-in, garbage-out, as they say. I'm not going to throw PHM-1 data at the poor thing and then complain I get crap out the other end.


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Thiel
Post subject: Re: Imperial Swedish NavyPosted: August 11th, 2016, 3:30 am
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Oh certainly. I was just using it to calculate displacement but because of the grumblings we've had here on our little forum I thought I'd check just how wrong it would get.

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Psilander
Post subject: Re: Imperial Swedish NavyPosted: August 11th, 2016, 4:53 am
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I've bern using SS for many years and is quite familiar with the problems. This design actaually shows of some of the problems i.e the swedish Östergötland class had with top weight, or the german Karlsruhe had with stress on the hul, with triples on a narrow hull (15,3m). Her hull was even longer so it must have caused even more stress.

I think SS at least gives you a good hint if the design is plausible, it is better than not using it as we see lots of waco designs with tons of hugmungos guns...

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