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Kattsun
Post subject: What could have been?Posted: November 19th, 2013, 2:19 am
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Starting with this:

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Excerpt from some really niche book:

Slpprj (Sparljuspansarprojektil Eng: Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot Fin Stabilised Tracer) m/84 was one of the most advanced LRPs of its time. It was one of the first depleted uranium LRP both in general and specifically (not the first, that success story goes to the Israelis, with their M111 Hetz (Arrow), which was developed for their antiquated 105mm guns, and showed significant capability during the 1982 Lebanon War) developed for the then NATO standard 152mm gun-launcher. Slpprj m/84 was adopted by the Norwegian Army as an alternative to the German offerings, which were WHA. It was the first long rod penetrator that was adopted NATO-wide that could defeat the then-current Soviet T-72A main battle tank at typical battle ranges. It was the penultimate 152mm APFSDS round, and the last one to see widespread export success outside NATO.

(...)

The Danes adapted the Slpprj m/84 to a 105mm casing, allowing it to be used by their antiquated Centurion main battle tanks. Additionally it was used by the Belgian and Dutch Corps on the Inner German Border from 1986 to 1993 when the DDR and BRD reunited. The Turkish Army, with their large stockpiles of American M70 tanks, still have significantly use of the Slpprj m/84 where it is used on the Syrian border with the Soviet-aligned Assad's regime.

The British, in their typically British fashion, opted for a 120mm two piece gun instead (L11A5) instead of the 152mm, although Slpprj m/84 was adopted as the L24 APFSDS for a brief period as an interim round before CHARM was brought into service in the 1990's.

It was used by the Americans in Operation Desert Storm,, where United States tankers in M70 main battle tanks managed to score significant numbers of kills on Republican Guard Asad Babils and Type 59s using Slpprj m/84, adopted by them as the M776 APFSDS. The Germans adopted it as the DM20 round, where it served in second line units as the Bundeswehr transitioned to their new Leopard 3 main battle tank, armed with a Rheinmetall 140mm gun and equipped with Special Armour similar to the British Dorchester array. The German Leopard 2 was retired in 2004, after thirty years of service.

The Slpprj m/84 remained in use with the Canadians until 2008, two years after Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) deployed to the Waziristan Theater with DATP-built MBT-70s during Operation Rattlesnake, as part of the ongoing Global War On Terror. It was used to great effect against Taliban insurgents in the FATA regions of former Pakistan against Pakistani Army defectors. When Canadian troops cornered Mullah Mohammad Omar in Miramshah, it was the Slpprj m/84 that led the way, destroying several Al-Zarrar main battle tanks ahead of the American Delta Force and Norwegian Army Rangers who facilitated his capture.

While Slpprj m/84 has been phased out in NATO armies in favour of the Slpprj m/90 series, the American M964 APFSDS, the German DM94 140mm APFSDS, etc., it still exists in the inventory of many minor states that are neither NATO nor Warsaw Pact. American M70 tanks are proliferate in the South American continent, where Slpprj m/84 has become the main tank ammunition used by the Argentine, Chilean, and Colombian armies. The Brazilians still prefer their EE-T1 Osorio main battle tank, operating them alongside the Saudis, and the rest have a mixture of American WW2 surplus and NATO light tanks.

(...)

Although the threat of The Final War still looms on the horizon, Slpprj m/84 and the M70 will play little part, having been replaced by more advanced tanks with better guns, and more modern ammunition, to meet the need of the Future Force in dealing with crisis across the globe, in Europe and elsewhere. From the divided continent of Europe, to the sand blasted wastes of the Iraqi desert, to the mountainous regions of the Pakistani-Afghan border, the Slpprj m/84 has made its on history.

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The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.


Last edited by Kattsun on July 4th, 2017, 6:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: What could have been?Posted: November 19th, 2013, 3:56 am
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I think North Point tank crews probably refer to this round as SLAPPER-JULIET.

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nighthunter
Post subject: Re: What could have been?Posted: November 19th, 2013, 8:23 am
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And DC crews would refer to it as Slapper Jay

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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: What could have been?Posted: November 20th, 2013, 5:13 am
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nighthunter wrote:
And DC crews would refer to it as Slapper Jay
Yes, hence my ironic remark about "SLAPPER-JULIET", coming from the Swedish abbreviation SLPPRJ being pronounced by English speakers. ;)

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Kattsun
Post subject: Re: What could have been?Posted: December 14th, 2013, 6:02 am
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[ img ]

Westmoreland is Gallaverse's MacArthur.

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The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.


Last edited by Kattsun on July 4th, 2017, 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tempest
Post subject: Re: What could have been?Posted: December 14th, 2013, 9:02 am
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Just one of them or the 120mm equivelent (L27 120mm APFSDS round (CHARM 3)) travelling near a person would turn them inside out. If actually hitting, red mist would ensure.

I enjoyed being a gunner on a range package but preferred being a driver any other time.

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klagldsf
Post subject: Re: What could have been?Posted: December 14th, 2013, 3:44 pm
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Kattsun wrote:
Westmoreland is Gallaverse's MacArthur.
Not to rain on your parade but that somewhat ignores how armor battles in Vietnam were practically insignificant.


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Kattsun
Post subject: Re: What could have been?Posted: December 14th, 2013, 8:04 pm
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klagldsf wrote:
Kattsun wrote:
Westmoreland is Gallaverse's MacArthur.
Not to rain on your parade but that somewhat ignores how armor battles in Vietnam were practically insignificant.
When did Creighton Abrams get nuclear weapons in Vietnam? Moreover, the Easter Offensive IRL was a fairly conventional battle, similar to American experience in Korea. The PAVN never had a lot of tanks, something like 300 of various T-54s, Type 59s, PT-76, and T-34 committed in 1972. The 11th ACR had 40 in its TOAE.

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The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.


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klagldsf
Post subject: Re: What could have been?Posted: December 15th, 2013, 7:14 am
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Kattsun wrote:
When did Creighton Abrams get nuclear weapons in Vietnam?
Huh?

The average VC/NVA strategy was to disperse supply lines and basically everything and mass-dump propaganda to kill U.S. support, while the average US strategy was to walk uselessly into the jungle and hope to engage in random skirmishes.


Of course, that's as gross a simplification as possible but it goes to show that the traditional military confrontation in Vietnam barely existed.

And I'm not trying to criticize your AU, it just kind of bothers me whenever someone suggests the key to winning in Vietnam was to pump up conventional ground forces. Probably because I spent too much time at Spacebattles.


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Kattsun
Post subject: Re: What could have been?Posted: December 15th, 2013, 7:22 am
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klagldsf wrote:
Kattsun wrote:
When did Creighton Abrams get nuclear weapons in Vietnam?
Huh?

The average VC/NVA strategy was to disperse supply lines and basically everything and mass-dump propaganda to kill U.S. support, while the average US strategy was to walk uselessly into the jungle and hope to engage in random skirmishes.


Of course, that's as gross a simplification as possible but it goes to show that the traditional military confrontation in Vietnam barely existed.

And I'm not trying to criticize your AU, it just kind of bothers me whenever someone suggests the key to winning in Vietnam was to pump up conventional ground forces. Probably because I spent too much time at Spacebattles.
America never would have won Vietnam.

At best it would have been Korea.

What criticism are you leveling at my picture? It talks about the first combat use the MBT-70 sees in Viet Nam against T-54s and PT-76s. Nowhere is there mentioning of large scale armoured battles (only the 11th ACR is mentioned as having them, and only one squadron has them, the IRL 1st Squadron, 11th ACR which was organised as a tank battalion in Vietnam), but it is mentioned that T-54s were ineffectual against them. Nowhere is it mentioned that the USA won the war (in fact, the implication is that the Paris Peace Accords merely allowed South Vietnam to continue existing). The only thing you can gleam from it is that the USA managed to keep the South alive with a diminished II Field Force during the Easter Offensive.

Westmoreland is relieved of command by Nixon, Abrams replaces him. Vietnamisation continues at a much slower pace and smaller scale, isn't complete until Carter takes office in 1978, and the use of tactical nuclear weapons in Viet Nam sets a precedent that is used as legal justification by the USSR in Afghanistan in the 1980's. By the 1990's MACV is a permanent establishment of the United States Forces Vietnam, along with a similar to IRL but larger USFK/UNC, whose primary purpose is to keep the Chinese out of Korea.

There also existed IRL regimental tank battles in Vietnam in both the Easter Offensive and Coral-Balmoral. The opening stages of the Easter Offensive had ARVN 1st Division and 11 ACR fighting two PAVN tank regiments and two divisions (304th, 308th "Iron" divisions of Dieu Bien Thu fame) on the DMZ.

About the only obvious differences from IRL is that Thuong gets nuclear weapons, the US still has large units of II Field Force (82nd Airborne, 9th Infantry Division) in theater in 1972, and Westmoreland is still in charge. and one "john ryan" is tragically killed in an accident involving a gavin and a sagger missile on his first tour as an infantry officer

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The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.


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