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Kattsun
Post subject: What should have been.Posted: August 30th, 2014, 10:14 pm
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An even worse AU than before, where I will actually draw new things instead of reposting dumb stuff I've drawn years ago!

I'll start off by posting some things I drew two months ago!

This establishes the setting or something:

[ img ]

NATO c. 1955:

[ img ]

Later members are reunited Czechslovakia, East Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, and Albania.

The Trizone doesn't exist, since the crux of the Cold War is divided Poland, but Germany was divided in the following manner:

[ img ]

Cerulean is French: Republic of the Saar (or Saarland), and Republic of Baden.
Dark blue is the American Zone: Wurttemburg-Hohenzollern, Bavaria.
Red is the U.K. Zone: Republic of the Rhine and Westphalia. The small grey dot between Denmark and UK Zone is the Free City of Hamburg, a neutral actor.
Green is the Polish Zone: Saxony, Thuringia. Berlin, Brandenburg, and Mecklenburg were annexed by the Poles as reparations.

Basically, instead of industrial dismantling, a more subversive dismantling of the political ideal of a German state was conducted by the Allies after the WW2. Germany was made de facto client states of the Allies, and German industry doesn't really exist anymore having been spirited away to France, Poland, and the United States. The major players of European industry are France and UK, with a lesser role played by Nordics and Poland.

The ECSC exists, being an Anglo-French venture, instead of a Franco-German one. It hasn't quite evolved to the point of a federal entity like the EU has, but it still has significant stake in the economies of Europe.

The de jure governing body of the German states is headquartered in Bavaria, which is the German Confederation. It is a loose economic coalition, allowing free trade and free transit across former Germany and not much else. Given Germany's weak industrial status among the European powers, it primarily enjoys a subsidiary role besides the ECSC. It is situated across the street from the United States' XVIII Airborne Corps headquarters.

Since Germany lacks significant industry to produce its own equipment, it has to rely on the production of its allies. Primarily, the states are equipped by their benefactors which occupy the Allied Occupation Areas (AOA) of Former Germany. Saarland and Baden use French equipment, Rhine and Westphalia use British, etc. Sometimes they mix, but the majority of equipment comes from their Allied occupiers.

Despite the large amounts of territory and industry seized from Germany following the war, much of its population remains intact. This is primarily thanks to Allied efforts at expelling native German populations and taking their homes, sending them in cattle cars to Bavaria to be re-settled within the new German Confederation. The 1950's were rather hard times.

Here is a Mirage IIIV of Saarland:

[ img ]

_________________
The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.


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Rusel
Post subject: Re: What should have been.Posted: August 30th, 2014, 10:52 pm
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Mmmm
So for this AU to have happened the Russians only made it half way across Poland then?
If they did get to Berlin then this scenario won't work.
There is just no way Stalin would give half of Poland 'away'.
The Balkanisation of Germany could have happened as with Austro-Hungary, only if there had not been the threat of communism right through the middle of Germany.
The Allies needed a united Germany as a buffer.
Churchill did warn everyone, but the world was too exhausted to listen.


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Kattsun
Post subject: Re: What should have been.Posted: August 31st, 2014, 12:04 am
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Yes, Russia only managed to get up to the Vistula, and Eastern Poland was ceded to the Soviets at Yalta.

The Allies stopped just short of the Oder in Berlin, and the most iconic image of the ETO is of a pair of French and British troops raising their respective flags above the Reich Chancellery. The second most iconic image is Hitler being escorted out of the Fuerherbunker with his hands behind his head, followed by a pair of British commandos.

I haven't quite worked out how exactly it ends up that the USSR founders a bit longer than a year or so it did IRL, perhaps the Germans are more competent or maybe Zhukov is killed in the Far East.

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The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.


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Rusel
Post subject: Re: What should have been.Posted: August 31st, 2014, 6:07 am
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Thanks Katt.
Yes that will certainly give you plenty of scope for the political scenarios.
You may have to pull Rommel out of France and Kesselring out of Italy, so the allied invasions and advances there are more rapid.
The Panther fuel vapour problem wasn't fixed till late '44 IIRC, so not much real opposition from the Pz Divs.
Perhaps the pre-emptive strike suggested by Zhukov and Timoshenko in may 41 goes ahead and Zhukov is captured when the soviets are routed in a sort of repeat of Tannenberg in 1914.
Yep lots of fun to have with this one!


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JSB
Post subject: Re: What should have been.Posted: August 31st, 2014, 6:26 am
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In the top map (1955 ?) you have Japan (+etc) as part of NATO but not AUS/NZ ? Would they not join any western world force ?

JSB


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pegasus206
Post subject: Re: What should have been.Posted: August 31st, 2014, 9:21 am
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Hi kattsun.

Nice senario for a AU looking forward to see more of it.

Aboth you problem why it took th russians a year more than in real live.

My version is the German Army captured the whole Caucasus before November 1942.And wen the Rusians attact the Germans at Lenningrad the German Army Group A comming from the Caucasus Attact the Southern attacing Rusian troops. So the Germans defeted the Rusians at Stalingrad. And afther that the Germand dig in along the river Don. Stalin how ever who special send Zhukov to retake the city was so angry at him that he banished him to a camp in Siberia. The troops the German had than whould gif them the power to hold of the Rusians a little bith longer than in real life.


By the way Surinam was in 1955 stil part of the Duth Kingdom and like French Guiana be blue.

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Aart.

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The Kingdom of Rochfort in FD


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Kattsun
Post subject: Re: What should have been.Posted: August 31st, 2014, 2:04 pm
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JSB wrote:
In the top map (1955 ?) you have Japan (+etc) as part of NATO but not AUS/NZ ? Would they not join any western world force ?

JSB
The top map would be the late 1970s or something I guess, I didn't bother labeling it.

I was waiting for someone to ask this.

Japan was invaded and annexed by the United States in March 1946, the war ended in May 1946 when MacArthur sacked Tokyo with a tank army after nuking a Japanese armoured division on the Kanto Plain. The Americans suffered around 900,000 (no one knows the exact number, the official figures are 300,000 dead and 597,000 wounded, but that's probably a low count. There was a shortage of Purple Hearts and it was in general really confusing.) dead and wounded in direct combat at Kyushu, the Japanese many more (low estimates are twice the American body count) given the American nuclear superiority. Total American casualties were a mite over 1,000,000 including kamikaze attacks. The most notorious single loss of American life during the Japanese invasion was a kamikaze plane making it into the hangar of USS Reprisal (CV-36) and detonating major POL and ammunition stocks being brought up.

The number was less than it could have been since Kyushu was "softened" by a preliminary nuclear bombardment by 5 Silverplates, destroying much of the kamikaze force on the ground and other boring things like small inland field forces.

LCS-alike doctrinal design in this AU actually stems from littoral encounters with Japanese suicide motor boats in Operations Coronet and Downfall, since the US Navy expects the same of Iran and other Islamist states.

The Soviets tried to invade Hokkaido by sea, but 80,000 Russians were killed in a week by the meager Japanese defenders and Kamikaze pilots and ships. Hokkaido is a source of pride for the modern Japanese Army/Air National Guard and Naval Reserve.

The annexation resulted from LeMay and some weird Senators successfully advocating to FDR the need for a "German solution" (that is, Morganthau and Bakker-Schut's) to the Japanese problem, specifically referring to the Potsdam Agreement in the (draft) Instrument of Surrender and the perceived inherent brutality of a Japanese regime.

The Japanese Instrument of Surrender wasn't tremendously different IRL, and Japan still exists (in theory anyway, but that was tossed out the window when Japan was made a territory) as an independent state according to the Instrument, but it's a governed territory of the United States. Initially unincorporated, but in the 1970s it successfully advocated for incorporated territory status in front of Congress, and Japanese citizens are given the same Constitutional rights as the US ones.

There are still lots of questions about how to organise Japan as a state, whether it should be five or six states, how to integrate local Japanese laws with the United States', etc.

Naval Air Station Uotsuri is still the largest runway in the Pacific (3 km and change), since Cubi Bay was never built.

_________________
The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.


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JSB
Post subject: Re: What should have been.Posted: August 31st, 2014, 2:51 pm
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I don't get why the US would want to let them in and not the Philippians ? Why would the USA(40s) want more none whites in ? (let alone ex enemy's)

A long term occupation makes sense but annexation doesn't really IMO.

JSB


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Kattsun
Post subject: Re: What should have been.Posted: August 31st, 2014, 3:04 pm
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It was proposed IRL by US congressmen.

Philippines is independent for the same reason it was IRL: It was a founding state of the United Nations and a member of the UN during the WW2.
pegasus206 wrote:
Hi kattsun.

Nice senario for a AU looking forward to see more of it.

Aboth you problem why it took th russians a year more than in real live.

My version is the German Army captured the whole Caucasus before November 1942.And wen the Rusians attact the Germans at Lenningrad the German Army Group A comming from the Caucasus Attact the Southern attacing Rusian troops. So the Germans defeted the Rusians at Stalingrad. And afther that the Germand dig in along the river Don. Stalin how ever who special send Zhukov to retake the city was so angry at him that he banished him to a camp in Siberia. The troops the German had than whould gif them the power to hold of the Rusians a little bith longer than in real life.


By the way Surinam was in 1955 stil part of the Duth Kingdom and like French Guiana be blue.
Yes, I accidentally overlooked the entire Dutch Antilles too.

I fixed it.

_________________
The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.


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Radome
Post subject: Re: What should have been.Posted: August 31st, 2014, 9:06 pm
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It's pretty cool, but because i'm an Israeli i was wondering...
Why is Israel considered a secound world country and the Egyptian Sini pinnicula counsidered as a first world?
Sini is a desert region whith nearly no considerble life in it...
Sini is a part of Egypt and Its UN territory by your map. but Egypt itself is USSR??

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