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Hood
Post subject: Re: First Generation Jet Fighter -ChallengePosted: December 15th, 2019, 11:36 am
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Congratulations The_Sprinklez, a well deserved winner and well done to everyone who took part, some really lovely designs entered, perhaps one of the best FD challenges so far.

Got some detailed feedback on the entries:

Potez 1600 by VictorCharlie: I loved this entry, looks so perfectly French, the layout and rear fuselage with the tail bumper wheel just hits the spot. Well drawn and lovely colour schemes.

SCRUNT Chaser 71 by Kattsun: looks like a souped-up Vampire/Venom. The intakes look a little small perhaps. Shame there was no top-view for this entry. Some of the shading doesn't really fit the FD rules and the cockpit transparencies not being outlined in black look a little odd and again are at odds with the FD scale style.

Yak-31 by Garlicdesign: a top artist who draws lovely aircraft so nothing out of the unexpected here in terms of quality. The design looks plausible, the fuselage feels a little shallow for a VK-1 but perhaps only by a couple of pixels (just my opinion by eye), the variants look good too, the Yak-32 looking the best of the bunch (a poor-man's F-5).

Sukhoi S-9 by Hood: self-reflection here, probably needed more anhedral on the wings, perhaps some more varied colour schemes too. Looked perhaps too much like a Lavochkin La-15.

Arsenal Aeronautique Chasseur CC-12 Corbeau by reytuerto: an interesting concept, well drawn but perhaps needed a bit more detailing on the panel lines, at the moment they feel a little generic, needs more hatches etc. I feel the jet needed a larger intake and perhaps a taller rear fusealge. Aerodynamically a safe bet. An interesting concept little followed in the real-world but certainly with real-world precedence (XP-81 for example).

Foster VF6 Chupacabra by Shigure: very well drawn and lovely lines and shading, the forward fuselage reminded me of the P-80. For me this lost marks as I feel the wings are too far aft and would lead to control and balance issues and I wasn't sure what the extended leading-edge outboard of the intakes was for, a proto-LERX?

Schlemmer Sc138 by Schlemm138: a design that certainly fits the 'Luft 46' vibe. Not sure there wouldn't be a host of aerodynamic issues with that engine placement but its an imaginative design, interesting variants too and the bomber looks interesting as well.

Messerschmitt Me 409 by Yqueleden: I have a soft spot for the Me 309 and its design, what I think you have done very well is build a lineage from the Me 309 to the post-war Hispano HA-200 that Willy Messerchmitt designed. There is a touch of Me 262 in there too. You really went to town on the variants! The seaplane Me 411A with the retractable pontoon like the Blackburn B.44 is interesting too, not sure it would be practical in the real world but its a nice touch. The coloured in pilots in the cockpit is interesting too, wonder if this will catch on? I feel these are your best FD aircraft so far.

Fokker D.24 by acelanceloet: Ace never shys away from an innovative if not radical design and here we have proof of that with flush intakes and a unique twin-wheel undercarriage. I think this was tried in the 1950s, can't remember for which fighter, might have been Soviet? The drawing is well drawn. I find as a design though there are a few things that seem 'off', the wings are probably too thin, the semi-retractable undercarriage seems odd for a jet fighter even if this meant to be a low-end fighter and the fuselage just seems too long, too much thrust loss. I assume all the fuel is meant to be in the fuselage? Some really neat ideas here but its just too off-key for my tastes.

Chekhov Ch-14 by APDAF: your skills are improving and this is your best FD aircraft to date. Overall looks like a fairly standard early 1950s two-seat fighter type. I would advise more work on the panel lines, perhaps more shading in the mid-fuselage and the newer 'glass' colours. The airbrake should also be bigger.

Curtiss-Wright XF-16C/ CW-30 by Kiwi Imperialist: I just loved this design, 100% hits the Curtiss style and just looks real enough to be real. Yes its a tubby beast but I can imagine Curtiss actually building such a design, looks better than their XF-87 to be honest!

Reggiane Re. 2010 by TigerHunter1945: reminded me so much of a souped-up Re.2007 (infamous mythical fighter that does the rounds online) with F-86 elements. Very well drawn and lovely colour schemes, the ZELL-launcher is a nice bonus too.

Western Aerojet WJ1 Wedgetail by thegrumpykestrel: I love this design too, reminds me of the Gloster Javelin but less radical in form and looks a powerful beast. I felt the tail should have been a little taller but that's just nitpicking. Just wish you had put some meaty Red Deans on this for added cool factor. The panel lines are subdued but it works well.

Messerschmitt Me 245 "Adler" (Eagle) by Imperialist: another good FD-scale artist and the work here is top notch. Some lovely work here, but for me it just felt like a rehash of the Me 262, your early prototypes have more of a He 280 vibe and had you gone with that and made it look less like an Me 262 it would have been a much better work. Can't fault the art but just feel it could have been less like a 262 carbon copy.

Sachs Sa. 28 "Uhu" (Owl) by The_Sprinklez: reminds me so much of the North American FJ-2 & FJ-3 Fury and the Saab J-29 too around the forward fuselage. Very well drawn, lovely variants and colour schemes too. If I was to nitpick I would say the top-view feels a bit bare but thats about it.

AR387 by Rodondo: More 'Luft 46' vibes here, feeling the hand of the Horten bros here. Amazing work on the riveting, must have taken ages, lovely shading too. But the design has some odd features that lost realism marks, the tiny rudders, the wing shape seems off, its almost a delta but not quite and the wingtip chord is massive, I can't of any design that has such chord at the wingtips. As a fighter I feel it would manoeuvre like a barn door, the control surfaces seem too small too. Plus it seems odd that the wing panel lines are all 90 degree angles when they should really follow the spar lines and the leading-edge sweep. So for me this lost points.

Timokhin Burya by Gollevainen: dinky but very well drawn, one could almost call this an A-4ski! Looks very suited to ground attack.

Bell YP-39H Airacobra by Muscatatuck: an ingenious idea, one you could almost see being done in real life but perhaps as an experimental testbed not quite to the spirit of the challenge to be a frontline first gen fighter. The engine layout would be rater wasteful on thrust but you address that in the text. Some interesting elements to the kitbashing which I think earns a high score for the changes made as its not a simple repaint job.

R-77F Soarer by wb21: ok its a Hawker P.1048 clone but damn its a sexy design and very well drawn, so not original but worthy of good marks for the artistry.

Kawanishi Ki-220 Gekko by Armoured man: nice concept and nicely drawn but this looks nearly 90% like a Gloster Meteor (at first I wondered if it was a kitbash) and thats a shame as it lost marks for originality.

EEA Ereeta E-1 by MrSinny: a debut work and very nicely drawn, lovely riveting details, reminds me of the Nanchang J-12 in looks. Hope to see more of your works.

As to the points scoring system, I still think 10 points is difficult for subjective questions like quality, what separates an 8 from 9 or 7? My definition is not going to be the same as someone else's. Suitability is hard too, most of these challenges don't have specific technical rules, for this challenge you just needed a jet engine, first generation airframe within the 1940s-50s. So for the most part everyone ticked that box perfectly for 10 points. The two entries with propellers were harder to score in this respect but were still within the spirit of the challenge. Kitbash is binary, it either is or isn't. 1 would be just a repaint, 3 kitbashed elements, 5 original.

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eswube
Post subject: Re: First Generation Jet Fighter -ChallengePosted: December 15th, 2019, 2:13 pm
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Congratulations to all participants and particularly the winner.

@Hood
Potez 1600 "looks so perfectly French" because it's real-life Nord 1601. ;)

@All
Just my 3 cents on "formal" issues raised by Gollevainen and Hood. I guess that indeed 10 point-scoring scale is too wide - 5 points would be perfectly fine, considering that it operates on purely subjective and arbitrary basis anyway.
And regarding "kitbash factor" and "originality" (it's not the same, of course, because it's possible to kitbash something completely original from small elements of other drawings, while originality is about design being actually real-world design in disguise, but both issues share common point of being "wholly own work" or not) - perhaps it would be useful if participants simply had to explicitly declare if they used some real-world design (that means both real-life and unbuilt) - either directly or as major inspiration and if they used (in copy-paste manner) some elements of other real-world designs (even if artwork itself is wholly theirs)? In such cases, the "real-world design in disguise" could have allocated certain maximum amount of points "by default".


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Gollevainen
Post subject: Re: First Generation Jet Fighter -ChallengePosted: December 15th, 2019, 6:49 pm
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I think the 0-10 range was chosen so that it creates more variable in the score. if we reduce it to the 0-5 i think we are bound to see more ties. But if someone with more experience in statistical mathematics could give insight, the floor is open.

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Hood
Post subject: Re: First Generation Jet Fighter -ChallengePosted: December 16th, 2019, 9:18 am
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eswube wrote: *
@Hood
Potez 1600 "looks so perfectly French" because it's real-life Nord 1601. ;)
I thought it looked familiar from somewhere. :D
I think every entry was probably based on something real or very similar to a real aircraft, no bad thing, certainly aids the realism and shows everyone was in the right ballpark.

True, a 5 point system might result in much closer and overlapping marks.
Looking at the kitbash factor scores:
109 x 1
107 x 3
106 x 1
105 x 4
104 x 3
103 x 2
102 x 1
101 x 2
98 x 1
93 x 2
55 x 1
So on the face of it the range looks good but the marks so seem to be more clumped.

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