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pMASTER
Post subject: "Outside the pre-established stylistic rules"Posted: December 11th, 2020, 1:58 am
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Being still new to this site, I'd like to delve into @Armoured Man's criticism of @Ro-Po Max's work a bit. Maybe this will take the heat out of the discussion, but I also want to learn something new here since whilst some people were not happy with his comments @Gollevainen on the other hand was in agreement.

What is an acceptable amount of shades in your opinion? And what made Max's works stand out to you – rather than say Little-Bird's which are very similar?

And should FD scale drawings really have to abide by the same "pe-established rules" applicable to SB scale drawings given the difference in size?

Some people make do and draw fantastic things with only one base colour, one colour for illuminated surfaces and a third for surfaces lying in shadow (obviously with corresponding colours e.g. for contours like rivets). Personally – and I claim no expertise here, I'm just saying what I think feels right to the eye – I'd make that at least two shades for illuminated surfaces and two for shadowed ones.

For instance, it seems to me that if the shadow underneath an aircraft's wing "meets" the shadow running along the underside of the fuselage the overlapping section should be darker to create a more "sculptural" impression.

Anyway, I'd love to hear more about this issue from you guys.


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Armoured man
Post subject: Re: "Outside the pre-established stylistic rules"Posted: December 11th, 2020, 2:39 am
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well the biggest reason why I personally have a problem with RO PO's style, is because in my opinion the method he uses for shading ultimately makes the finished product not very easy to edit/modify, which goes against one of the very core fundamental ideas of what SB is all about, at the end of the day Max's art is very impressive when you separate it from the wider SB Style, but when you judge it using the pre-established rules of the style that is when it begins to fall apart, I've already made it clear above that the shading is the part that I disagree with the most about his work, another aspect I'm not the biggest fan off is the lack of black lines on certain objects in his work which of course goes against the most fundamental rule of SB that being it has to have a black outline.

also when it comes to the amount of shades that you use for a drawing it's encouraged to use at least a 5 shade palette, with most people using 5 and 6 shade pallets, I could be wrong but I also believe that some people do in fact use 7 shade palettes, personally I've always used 6 shade pallets for my work, I personally feel that any more than a 6 or 7 shade palette, begins to get into the realm of having shades and shading for the sake of it rather then because you need it to represent a given shape or object.

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pMASTER
Post subject: Re: "Outside the pre-established stylistic rules"Posted: December 11th, 2020, 4:41 am
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I appreciate the argument of "modularity", although even as a complete novice I didn't find it terribly difficult to modify Max's drawings. Frankly, I endorse the complexity. It taught me a lot and helped me to come up with more original content. Besides, I'm not quite sure if sharing one's work with the community should translate into having to provide a near-finished product.

For instance, I used Max's Dingo to draw some entirely new variants. Just rehashing something with minimal change doesn't seem very rewarding.

As for the black outlines, well, I adopted his approach myself there believing it to be better suited to the more delicate lines and shapes of the FD scale. An 18 feet aircraft is not a 600 feet aircraft carrier.

Anyway, thanks for your opinion … but I have to say I found your response to Max a little bit harsh on account of the following: This is an art form, after all. And at the utmost he's playing Rugby instead of American Football if you know what I mean: It's not like he's begun to play golf. I like to see members pushing the boundaries of this medium.


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The_Sprinklez
Post subject: Re: "Outside the pre-established stylistic rules"Posted: December 11th, 2020, 4:52 am
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pMASTER wrote: *
This is an art form, after all. And at the utmost he's playing Rugby instead of American Football if you know what I mean: It's not like he's begun to play golf. I like to see members pushing the boundaries of this medium.
This is all I'm going to comment on, for now, but I'd just like to remind you and anyone else observing the thread that the primary point of Shipbucket as a community is a conformal and universal style. There is no problem with "pushing boundaries", but don't expect to come into the main sub-forums of our community and post stuff considerably different than the standard and expect people not to get annoyed. Everyone is welcome here, no doubt, but there is a Non-Shipbucket sub-forum for a reason. Everyone is also welcome to draw as they see fit and develop their own unique styles. However, a common scale does not mean that it's "Shipbucket" art. I, for one, enjoy Max's art but I don't really consider it to be the Shipbucket standard or style by some distance.

Just my two cents on this specific issue.

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pMASTER
Post subject: Re: "Outside the pre-established stylistic rules"Posted: December 11th, 2020, 4:54 am
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Isn't FD scale "Non-Shipbucket" already? Or am I badly informed about this?


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The_Sprinklez
Post subject: Re: "Outside the pre-established stylistic rules"Posted: December 11th, 2020, 5:05 am
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FD Scale is a part of the Shipbucket Style. It is, for all intents and purposes, an official SB scale (not THE SB scale, but A) and subject to the same style, crediting, and templating considerations when on this site and the Discord.

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The_Sprinklez
Post subject: Re: "Outside the pre-established stylistic rules"Posted: December 11th, 2020, 5:08 am
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That is also the reason that FD Scale has it's own sub-forum (like Shipbucket Scale) rather than being lumped in with Non-Shipbucket.

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Rhade
Post subject: Re: "Outside the pre-established stylistic rules"Posted: December 11th, 2020, 7:47 am
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The_Sprinklez wrote: *
There is no problem with "pushing boundaries", but don't expect to come into the main sub-forums of our community and post stuff considerably different than the standard and expect people not to get annoyed.
Many, many years ago some question about "style" was rises with Psilanders works that are diffidently not in SB-rules style of shading. Administration response that Psilander as veteran artist on this forum is a special exception and topic was drooped. Hell, Psilanders works are even uploaded in the archive on main side and no problem with that.

This set a precedent, that "strict rules" are more... interpretation of admins than rules. I don't see people bashing Psilander in his topics about non standard shading system. So what I see is not "defending" some SB-rules and easy to kitbashing someone else works with minimum effort... I see personal attacks against single artist under the pretext of keeping the rules.

Attacking people who like that artist works is below any level.

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Gollevainen
Post subject: Re: "Outside the pre-established stylistic rules"Posted: December 11th, 2020, 8:35 am
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Few clarifications should be made regarding to this ongoing issue:

1. There was no "attack" made by Armored Man against Adenandy. Yes there was a criticism and as a matter of taste it might been bit tacky and uncalled for but it did not fall into the category of personal attacks which naturally are against the forum rules. Everyone can disagree on Armored Man's opinion but claiming it as an attack is in my eyes more severe. Lets not continue on that path anymore.

2. Psilanders work have been ruled out to be non-shipbucket standards and have been agreed to be posted in the non-shipbucket art forum. Yet I don't see his fanboys saying how cool he is when he is drawing in different style (And I'm one of those fanboys, been even before whole SB was created). Also I find it cheap and unproductive to claiming that me and Colosseum would somehow give different rules to different artists especially if you unaware of the facts.

Now to the question of working outside the pre-stablished stylistic rules". I think its obvious to everyone that if we have a dedicated style and concept of how bunch of people are doing collective art database, its very selfish and arrogant to constantly doing just little bit differently and posting that stuff in the platforms dedicated to the original uniform concept. It just makes one appearing to be self-promoting his own special-snowflake status and looks plain right narcissist. You can draw what ever you want and with ever style you like but if it doesn't fall into SB standards, then it has no place in here. Simple as that.

Now saying this I don't claim that Ro-Po Max (as his style is being some what issue here) would fall into this category. In fact I've seen him moving more and more towards the standard shipbucket style and I think that is marvelous. He can be come to be one of the great SB artist.

But what I think is the most disgusting and unpleasant thing involving Ro-Po Max is that he is been used as scapegoat by some members that obviously have something against me or Colosseum. By constantly publicly praising, not his art but the fact that the art is against the shipbucket standards in some respect they are de facto hidden stabs towards us administrators and by that towards the whole shipbucket community. I like to remind that as the administrators, we do preserve the right to decide what is posted in here at the Forum and in the Discord channel. If you don't like the fact, well then don't post here.

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Rhade
Post subject: Re: "Outside the pre-established stylistic rules"Posted: December 11th, 2020, 9:12 am
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Well I did not think this will movie in to conspiracy theory about "personal attacks on Gollevainen & Colosseum". That's something new... May I remind you that I'm not some new blood here but I spend on this and former forum more that decade, spare me some BS... I'm to old for that and too long a member to swallow this crap.

I will point out some flaws in your argumentation, Psilander post his stuff not only in non-shipbucket sub-forum but also AUD... no drama there. A "little" double standards in this case.
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You can draw what ever you want and with ever style you like but if it doesn't fall into SB standards, then it has no place in here. Simple as that.
So that official statement of administration that non-shipbucket sub-forum will be deleted with FD scale one?

Ro-Po... first you clearly call his case as "self-promoting his own special-snowflake status and looks plain right narcissist" and then call him one of the great SB artist. Great, insults and then praising... great, indeed. Some mixed signals.

I propose a consensus, any one can deliver what they like with as many shades they like, but only drawings that follow strict SB rules will be uploaded to main archive and site. I think this is fair solution that will allow Shipbucket to grow.

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