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heuhen
Post subject: Re: A problem regarding Olekit24's worksPosted: March 20th, 2023, 7:21 am
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I took just an random gun from this part sheet as an example, but I have seen it on other people part sheet, so why it happens, I don't know!

http://shipbucket.com/wiki/index.php/Fi ... k_guns.png


For multiple "shades of gray", I don't relay mind, and I have noticed changes in technique over time, when it comes to how things are colored.
But it's mainly older parts that suffer from it, now some of them have been replaced by excellent redrawn one, that you have done lately. There was a short period where Mk13 and Mk22 GMLS was like that, haven't checked recently, but I remember their colors was a bit random back then.

For the RAM.. It's not a to big issue, but I think the quest of hunting for a lot of details in a "paint" drawing. When is it to much detail. Will always be an impossible question


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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: A problem regarding Olekit24's worksPosted: March 20th, 2023, 5:14 pm
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Heuhen, may I ask, how did you run into the issue with the white background not being standard white? as I am unable to reproduce the issue on the image you linked. It might be something on your end, although that seems strange too.

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Karle94
Post subject: Re: A problem regarding Olekit24's worksPosted: March 20th, 2023, 5:28 pm
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It's the same for me, it's all white.


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eswube
Post subject: Re: A problem regarding Olekit24's worksPosted: March 20th, 2023, 7:10 pm
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Regarding the issues raised by Heuhen...

Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad thing if the parts on the parts sheets were made available also in false colors (with some standardized colour pattern agreed upon), because reusing parts from the sheets tends indeed to demand adjustment of the used colours. Of course I don't mean redoing everything that's already there, but perhaps it could be something done for new entries.

As for the white background "not being standard white" - I'm referring here specifically to the file http://shipbucket.com/wiki/index.php/Fi ... k_guns.png
...which indeed does not have the standard white background.
In my Paint, the parameters given for standard, default white are:
Hue 160 / Sat 0 / Lum 240 / Red 255 / Green 255 / Blue 255,
whereas the parameters of background in mentioned file are:
Hue 120 / Sat 240 / Lum 240 / Red 254 / Green 255 / Blue 255
(which effectively is cyan taken to brightest extreme)


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Karle94
Post subject: Re: A problem regarding Olekit24's worksPosted: March 20th, 2023, 7:24 pm
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The code is indeed FEFFFF instead of FFFFFF, but at least it's uniform across the whole sheet.


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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: A problem regarding Olekit24's worksPosted: March 20th, 2023, 7:29 pm
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Ah, that explains the issue. I thought there were sections of the drawing which had different backgrounds.

Thanks eswube, it's fixed now. (Even though that sheet is quite close to being deleted as it was an work in progress sheet for stuff that was not otherwise on the wiki, and currently 90% is on the wiki as individual parts)

Some thoughts regarding the "false colours" or even colour palettes for the parts sheets have sometimes been discussed on the discord (for example the salmon shades) but I have not yet spend time actually creating such a standard. Another thought that I had was the standardisation of the base colours for all components, meaning that it is easy to check which colours are "paint/material" and which are "ship colour" which should match the drawing, and the chosen shades of that base colour. I personally have not seen an one size fits all solution yet, but I am not against implementing something.

That said, at some point it was suggested somewhere to completely work in contrasty/salmon shades for the components, something I am against as I find it important that components are easy to recognise as the real thing so an "realistic colour" version of an component should IMO always be part of part creation.

That said, we've gone quite off the track of the original topic of this thread, was a (for now) meaningful conclusion reached regarding Olekit's works?

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eswube
Post subject: Re: A problem regarding Olekit24's worksPosted: March 20th, 2023, 7:45 pm
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I agree that having parts only in false colors would be a bad idea, not least due to issue of recognizing it, which You mentioned. I was only thinking about providing both variants ("painted" and "false coloured").

Unfortunately, Olekit was not online here recently. Message I sent to him about this issue is still unread. I will check all his works, wether they are "mostly ok" (like, have just few stray pixels which I can correct myself), or if they need major clean-up/rework (like the example in the OP) - which would have to be left to Olekit himself. (And if he won't be back online in reasonable timeframe, then we would have to think about removing them - at least temporarily - from the archive. In any case, there are over 400 files to check, and that just checking them will take time)


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eswube
Post subject: Re: A problem regarding Olekit24's worksPosted: March 27th, 2023, 7:36 pm
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Quick update on progress...
My message to Olekit is still unread, unfortunately.
So far I've checked about 1/3rd of his works (not every single file, actually, but a sample from each class - there are 450+ files of 70+ classes...), and so far I can say that situation actually isn't bad... It's horrible, disastrous, castastrophic, monstrous...
Up until now I haven't found a work that wouldn't have at least some issues (mostly stray pixels), but there are some that make look the sample from OP look relatively ok. Like, for example, the template is .png (and so is the file), but the ship on it was jpeg-ed in the process (on some it looks like non-jpeged parts were added to jpeged ship, on some it's vice versa). It's not readily visible, only after applying false colors. On some others just part of the contour is actually black, and another part (sometimes nearly all of it) is just black-ish, and so on, and so on...
At this point it seems that I'll be able to salvage perhaps 15-20% of total on my own, rest would need a major clean-up from Olekit himself (I mean, it's his works, after all...)

When I'll finish I'll present more complete report, together with samples, but already at this point it seems to me that drastic decisions will need to be made. :/


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eswube
Post subject: Re: A problem regarding Olekit24's worksPosted: March 30th, 2023, 8:18 pm
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Review is done...
For practical reasons, in order to speed up things, I concentrated on stray pixels (primarily on background) and consistency of black contour, but also looked at gradients etc.
As mentioned before, results are definitely not encouraging...
I wrote that I hope to be able to salvage some 15-20% - in the end it was about 9,4% (I mean, I could do sort more of them, I guess, if we assume that I don't have anything else to do with my life) - and even there it merely meant that they just "aren't a total mess", because I wasn't paying much attention to shading (Olekit quite often had it from the wrong side), number of shades (as long as it was less-than-gradient number) and other subtleties.

With things looking as they do, it seems that tough decisions about the future of these works in the archive needs to be made by Administration (until they would be re-worked by Olekit, so they could be re-uploaded).
I'm afraid, that my personal advice is: MASS DELETION. :(

This is also a lesson (mainly to me, as uploader, but to an extent it applies to Staff and those Senior Members who are considering maintaining quality of works submitted to SB something worthy of their attention), to be less trusting and more nit-picking about details, and not being deceived by someone's high output of superficially impressive quality. :(

Btw. I'd suggest introducing a rule to the Style Guide, that NONE of the shades used may be the same as background white, because that seems to be a frequent issue (not only with Olekit's work).


On these previews, the "background (basic) white" has been replaced by orange and "contour (basic) black" has been replaced by green. On some works additional substitute colors were used.
(that means, that if You see something that looks white or black, it actually IS NOT white or black - and that's the problem)

Aviation Ship
- Imperator Petr Veliky (modified) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]


Battleship
- Centurion - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Peresvet - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED



Cargo Ship
- Sea Orchid - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Project RSD 59 - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED



Civilian Support Vessel
- Moskva (III) (modified) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED



Container Ship
- MERCUR II - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Paramount - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Saturn - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]



Cruiser
- Alfonso XII - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Emperador Carlos V - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Velasco - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]



Naval Auxiliary
- Augusta Victoria (modified) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Berlin (modified) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Imperator (modified) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Imperator Petr Velikiy (modified) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Moskva (III) (modified) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED



Passenger Ship
- AIDA - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Alfonso XII - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- AMAMagna - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- American Riverboat - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Aquarius - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- A-Rosa Flora - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Astor I / Astor II - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Augusta Victoria - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Aurora - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Berlin - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Carnival Dream - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Carnival Vista - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Catherine - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Century Glory - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Costa Concordia - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Crown Jewel - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Czar - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Deutschland - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Excellence - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- France - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Hamburg - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Havila Capella - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Horizon - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Imperator - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Imperator Petr Velikiy - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Iris (modified) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Meteor - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Minerva - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Moskva (III) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Oceanic (II) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Olympic Voyager - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Orel (II) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Oriana - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Orient - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- President - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Prinzessin Victoria Luise - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Project 92-016 Valerian Kuibyshev - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Project 301 Ivan Franko - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Project 630 - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Project 1454 Maria Yermolova - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Project PV300 - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Project Q-040 - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED - although the style is somewhat divergent from the standard

- R class (Holland America Line) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Royal Viking - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- S class (Holland America Line) - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Silver Shadow - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Vision - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Volga Dream - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Yangtse Gold - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED

- Yorktown - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED



Ro-Ro Ship
- Eagle - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Iris - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Kapitan Smirnov - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]



Tanker
- Altai - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
SALVAGED



Yacht
- Bahriyeli - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]

- Wind Star - http://shipbucket.com/drawings/search?c ... =&drawing=
[ img ]


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heuhen
Post subject: Re: A problem regarding Olekit24's worksPosted: March 31st, 2023, 1:23 am
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They are.... interesting. I am not going to count how many stray pixel there is, on that container ship Mercur II class! Wow!

I think the simplest solution is to take most of the worst drawing down, and put them in their own topic on the forum. Where other people on the forum, can pick them up for redraw/cleaning, when they have a little free time, now and then. Most likely, almost no one will do, but having them available, can be nice. Since some of the drawing are good, but I also see many drawings that are incorrect toward how the ship look in real life. For example the Havila Capella, some I did tell him, was way wrong, even in color. But got ignored.
So I do wonder if he don't like criticism, but that's not to me to judge.


I do notice that many of the drawings, if not all of them, is not exactly following Shipbucket "standard" for shading.

For example Cruise ship MS Aurora, what is he shading for!:
- funnel indicate, the light is coming from the rear
- superstructure is confusing (shading) are the light coming from the front or rear, or from the side. But it can't be from the side, due to shading of overhang.
- And as on many of his drawing, shading of overhang isn't following the Shipbucket style guide, as well.
- The hull shading, specially the bow, som I also se so many other people do... is a relay bad shading and shouldn't be allowed. It isn't even shading the shape of the hull/bow. But then the bow doesn't need any shading at all. Clean and simple is best.


Cruise ship AIDAnova. So many things wrong with it:
- Shading.
- Hull
- From front of bow to superstructure, is to short
- Angle of the front superstructure isn't correct.
- Various mast on top of the superstructure is wrong, or not correct size.
- round forms, consist of multiple flat lines.
- round form on the side of the superstructure, is shade in a way that it isn't round, but flat.
- and many more.
That alone is enough for me, to axe the AIDAnova of the archive.


The funny thing is that I commented on that ship and similar ship about that... was never fixed (ignored), most likely due to I was the only one that are in the forum commenting, when something is way wrong, even on small details, I notice often that people ignore negative comments when only one person is commenting, some is also the reason that I have started to basically redraw ships for random members, when I explain what I talk about, some probably some of you have noticed.
People either comment when something is good (without cheeking), or they use a different type of communication system instead of the "forum", making it almost dead... (looking at discord). I bet there is many artist and new artist that would love to see what people talk about, when someone is drawing a boat and learn from it. Like we did in the past on the forum and made it to what it is today. But today we only post a finish product and are not interested in doing changes, because we are done. (that's the side effect of discord). But that is a discussion for a different day.


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