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Karle94
Post subject: American Dreadnoughts - Possible AlternativesPosted: November 5th, 2018, 7:48 am
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I've been thinking about this one for quiet some time. What would an American dreadnought look like if the designers did not have the foresight to use the all-centerline superfiring turrets straight away, what if they had wing mounted turrets like the European BBs.

This first design is a BB with two wing mounted turrets in addition to the superfiring turrets ala South Carolina. The overall size is that of the Delaware class, same speed as well. I wanted to keep the rather unique appearance of the South Carolina whilst still making her bigger and more powerful all the same.

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  • USS Michigan BB-26, USA, Dreadnought laid down in 1906

    Displacement:
    21 496 t light; 22 574 t standard; 24 104 t normal; 25 328 t full load

    Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
    522,00 ft / 517,00 ft x 85,30 ft x 28,00 ft (normal load)
    159,11 m / 157,58 m x 26,00 m x 8,53 m

    Armament:
    12 - 12,00" / 305 mm guns (6x2 guns), 864,00lbs / 391,90kg shells, 1906 Model
    Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
    on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
    12 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1906 Model
    Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
    on side, all amidships
    8 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1906 Model
    Breech loading guns in deck mounts
    on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
    Weight of broadside 10 638 lbs / 4 825 kg
    Shells per gun, main battery: 100
    2 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

    Armour:
    - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
    Main: 11,0" / 279 mm 347,00 ft / 105,77 m 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
    Ends: 8,00" / 203 mm 50,00 ft / 15,24 m 8,50 ft / 2,59 m
    120,00 ft / 36,58 m Unarmoured ends
    Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
    Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

    - Torpedo Bulkhead:
    2,00" / 51 mm 397,00 ft / 121,01 m 8,50 ft / 2,59 m

    - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main: 12,0" / 305 mm 6,00" / 152 mm 10,0" / 254 mm
    2nd: 5,00" / 127 mm - -

    - Armour deck: 2,50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

    Machinery:
    Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
    Hydraulic drive, 2 shafts, 32 760 ihp / 24 439 Kw = 21,00 kts
    Range 6 950nm at 10,00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 2 755 tons (100% coal)

    Complement:
    966 - 1 257

    Cost:
    £2,525 million / $10,098 million

    Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 1 330 tons, 5,5 %
    Armour: 7 340 tons, 30,5 %
    - Belts: 2 642 tons, 11,0 %
    - Torpedo bulkhead: 250 tons, 1,0 %
    - Armament: 2 622 tons, 10,9 %
    - Armour Deck: 1 610 tons, 6,7 %
    - Conning Tower: 216 tons, 0,9 %
    Machinery: 4 680 tons, 19,4 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 046 tons, 33,4 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 608 tons, 10,8 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,4 %

    Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
    19 745 lbs / 8 956 Kg = 22,9 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,06
    Metacentric height 4,4 ft / 1,3 m
    Roll period: 17,1 seconds
    Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
    - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,84
    Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,32

    Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak
    Block coefficient: 0,683
    Length to Beam Ratio: 6,06 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 22,74 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12,80 degrees
    Stern overhang: -2,50 ft / -0,76 m
    Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
    - Stem: 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
    - Forecastle (20 %): 26,00 ft / 7,92 m (22,00 ft / 6,71 m aft of break)
    - Mid (50 %): 17,50 ft / 5,33 m (22,00 ft / 6,71 m aft of break)
    - Quarterdeck (15 %): 17,50 ft / 5,33 m
    - Stern: 17,50 ft / 5,33 m
    - Average freeboard: 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
    Ship tends to be wet forward

    Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 139,5 %
    - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135,6 %
    Waterplane Area: 34 819 Square feet or 3 235 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 796 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
    - Cross-sectional: 0,95
    - Longitudinal: 1,60
    - Overall: 1,00
    Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
    Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
    Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Next up is the BB26 Design 2 that has no superfiring turrets, and a grand total of four wing mounted turrets and one turret fore and aft. The length is the same. Armor is also the same, though its layout is slightly different. Unlike design 1 (see above,) design 2 is a flush decked ship to better handle all the weight out at the sides, and as such, her profile strongly resembles the Tennessee class armored cruisers with the decks rising greatly at both ends. This also neccessitates the placement of hull mounted casemates that will never be used because of sea-wash.

[ img ]

Design number 3 closely followes the layout that was used on the HMS Dreadnought. After all, the most sincerest form of flattery is imitation. Her size, speed and armor is the same as design number one.

[ img ]

I've been wanting to get these ones off my chest for quite some time, finally took the time to finish them. This is the alternate versions for the USS Delaware BS28.
Design number one is a mix of the Delaware and the succeeding Florida class. With the semi-turtleneck deck and the aft smokestack behind the main mast. In addition the rear turrets are arranged differently.

[ img ]

Design number two ditches the forward superfiring turret, and moves it to the middle, alongside turret number four in a staggered en-echelon arrangement. The Florida-esque semi turtleneck break is changed to a more Delaware like break. The cranes are mirrored on each side to accomodate the turrets being mirrored.

[ img ]

Design number three is the same as design number two, except the mid mounted turrets are placed on the centerline in a superfireing layout.

[ img ]

Design number 4 returns the forward superfiring turret, keeping one turret mounted on the centerline amidships.

[ img ]

Next up is not actually a battleship, but a battlecruiser. Designed 1908, the CC01 Design 1 sports 8x12 inch guns and 22x5 inch guns. The turrets are non-superfiring, with two placed amidships in an en-echelon also known as a staggered layout. With nothing in between and/or around, the turrets are capable of firing to either side, despite the winged turrets. The hull is based on the New York, but streamlined for higher speed, and some features lifted from the armored cruisers built before. She has moderate armor, with 8 inched of belt armor, and 10 inches of armor on the conning turret and turret faces. Her top speed is 27 knots with a range of 7500 nm. She has a tall, flush deck for better sea keeping, and maintaining a high speed in rough seas in order to overtake other cruisers.

[ img ]
  • USS United States CC-01, USA, Battlecruiser laid down in 1908

    Displacement:
    19 217 t light; 20 119 t standard; 21 310 t normal; 22 262 t full load

    Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
    585,00 ft / 582,00 ft x 93,20 ft x 25,00 ft (normal load)
    178,31 m / 177,39 m x 28,41 m x 7,62 m

    Armament:
    8 - 12,00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864,00lbs / 391,90kg shells, 1903 Model
    Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
    on side, evenly spread
    Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
    20 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62,50lbs / 28,35kg shells, 1907 Model
    Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
    on side, all amidships
    2 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62,50lbs / 28,35kg shells, 1907 Model
    Breech loading guns in deck mounts
    on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
    Weight of broadside 8 287 lbs / 3 759 kg
    Shells per gun, main battery: 100
    2 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

    Armour:
    - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
    Main: 8,00" / 203 mm 420,00 ft / 128,02 m 18,50 ft / 5,64 m
    Ends: Unarmoured
    Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length

    - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main: 10,0" / 254 mm 6,00" / 152 mm 8,00" / 203 mm

    - Armour deck: 2,50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

    Machinery:
    Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
    Direct drive, 4 shafts, 75 073 shp / 56 004 Kw = 27,00 kts
    Range 7 500nm at 10,00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 2 143 tons

    Complement:
    881 - 1 146

    Cost:
    £2,074 million / $8,294 million

    Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 1 036 tons, 4,9 %
    Armour: 5 993 tons, 28,1 %
    - Belts: 2 652 tons, 12,4 %
    - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
    - Armament: 1 425 tons, 6,7 %
    - Armour Deck: 1 751 tons, 8,2 %
    - Conning Tower: 166 tons, 0,8 %
    Machinery: 3 792 tons, 17,8 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 296 tons, 38,9 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 092 tons, 9,8 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,5 %

    Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
    25 834 lbs / 11 718 Kg = 29,9 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,24
    Metacentric height 6,6 ft / 2,0 m
    Roll period: 15,2 seconds
    Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
    - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,42
    Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,20

    Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has raised forecastle
    Block coefficient: 0,550
    Length to Beam Ratio: 6,24 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 24,12 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6,35 degrees
    Stern overhang: -3,00 ft / -0,91 m
    Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
    - Stem: 27,00 ft / 8,23 m
    - Forecastle (20 %): 25,00 ft / 7,62 m (23,00 ft / 7,01 m aft of break)
    - Mid (50 %): 21,00 ft / 6,40 m
    - Quarterdeck (15 %): 22,00 ft / 6,71 m
    - Stern: 23,00 ft / 7,01 m
    - Average freeboard: 22,66 ft / 6,91 m

    Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96,4 %
    - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177,9 %
    Waterplane Area: 37 855 Square feet or 3 517 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 764 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
    - Cross-sectional: 0,93
    - Longitudinal: 1,83
    - Overall: 1,00
    Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
    Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
    Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

This one is a more "conventional" design for the CC01, with superfireing all mid-mounted turrets and two big funnels.

[ img ]

This next one is a possible what-if the US had purchased the two ships of the Rivadavia class and pressed them into US service. She is repainted and reflagged. All Argentinian searchlights have been replaced with American ones, and the boats have been changed as well. I removed the four 4"/50 guns, and replaced them with the 3"/50 AA guns, and placed them in better positions. I also replaced the directors with American ones.

[ img ]


Last edited by Karle94 on March 7th, 2019, 7:17 am, edited 11 times in total.

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Shigure
Post subject: Re: American Dreadnoughts - Possible AlternativesPosted: November 5th, 2018, 8:09 am
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Very nice!

So is there also a possibility of you drawing Florida, Wyoming and Delaware now? :D

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Hood
Post subject: Re: American Dreadnoughts - Possible AlternativesPosted: November 5th, 2018, 9:27 am
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Looks good, but how much beam have you got?
I would have thought the superstructure would have been recessed around the midships turret area to allow it to traverse.

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Karle94
Post subject: Re: American Dreadnoughts - Possible AlternativesPosted: November 5th, 2018, 4:11 pm
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Shigure wrote: *
Very nice!

So is there also a possibility of you drawing Florida, Wyoming and Delaware now? :D
I am thinking of the same ship, but whith a Nassau style layout of her main guns. No superfiring guns at all.
Hood wrote: *
Looks good, but how much beam have you got?
I would have thought the superstructure would have been recessed around the midships turret area to allow it to traverse.
Ah, forgot about the shading there. The beam is 26 meters, or 85,3 feet, slightly more than the Dreadnought.


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BB1987
Post subject: Re: American Dreadnoughts - Possible AlternativesPosted: November 5th, 2018, 5:20 pm
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An interest try could be keeping th wing turrets but ditching the forward superfiring mount. It would give quite the original feel to a USN build.

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Karle94
Post subject: Re: American Dreadnoughts - Possible AlternativesPosted: November 5th, 2018, 6:28 pm
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A configuration ala Orion class? That could work. When I start working on the non-superfiring Nassau like BB, I want to keep it a flush decked ship, similar to the last classes of armored cruisers. Hull wise, they were almost identical to the battleships.


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Colombamike
Post subject: Re: American Dreadnoughts - Possible AlternativesPosted: November 5th, 2018, 8:29 pm
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Shigure wrote: *
So is there also a possibility of you drawing Florida, Wyoming and Delaware now?
David-Latuch has already draw these ships
I hope that Karle94 & David Latuch join together to improve these drawings


South Carolina class: http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7727
Delaware Class: http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8557
Florida Class: http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8675


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Shigure
Post subject: Re: American Dreadnoughts - Possible AlternativesPosted: November 5th, 2018, 9:41 pm
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Colombamike wrote: *
Shigure wrote: *
So is there also a possibility of you drawing Florida, Wyoming and Delaware now?
David-Latuch has already draw these ships
I hope that Karle94 & David Latuch join together to improve these drawings


South Carolina class: http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7727
Delaware Class: http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8557
Florida Class: http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8675
I'm well aware. I'm only asking because I personally prefer Karle's drawing style.

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Karle94
Post subject: Re: American Dreadnoughts - Possible AlternativesPosted: November 6th, 2018, 2:57 am
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I have added the design 2 to the original post.

I also updated design 1 with the recesses in the superstructure to make space for turret rotation.

As for some earlier posts, I will update my Delaware and Florida classes, although I am currently working back to front, so they will be the last ones. As for the South Carolina class, I never drew any of them so I wont be doing any of them as part of my redux project.


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Shigure
Post subject: Re: American Dreadnoughts - Possible AlternativesPosted: November 6th, 2018, 8:16 am
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Very interesting

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