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TimothyC
Post subject: Re: Ave ImperatorPosted: March 5th, 2012, 10:27 pm
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Well there is an assumption that I stated that probably wouldn't hold true. I'm curious if anyone can spot it.

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Dilandu
Post subject: Re: Ave ImperatorPosted: March 6th, 2012, 3:08 am
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Way to go, TimothyC! Good work!

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klagldsf
Post subject: Re: Ave ImperatorPosted: March 6th, 2012, 6:30 am
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...ok....

Trunked funnel thing aside (and BTW aside from what TimothyC wrote it also helps keep your topweight and top-moment [i.e., center of gravity] down) and asbestos thing aside (and BTW it was still used as a fireproofing material in non-accessable places until actually very recently; the reason why people make a big stink about it is not for the people who live or board in buildings or ships but for the people eventually tasked with dismantling them + the overreacting "think of the children!" crowd - hell it was still used for some fireproof suits that you'd actually wear until recently because it was more practical to come up with clever ways to keep the asbestos sealed than it was to find a fireproof material better than asbestos) there's something that needs to be addressed with your whole big Earth thing, and it's aside from what TimothyC already said about that too:
APDAF wrote:
Yes a heavily modified Earth where a year is ten times longer but if you met someone from this world you could not tell them apart from a normal human.
Also it has five times the surface area, coal, oil and gas will at modern usage levels will take a at least a 1000 years to even run low same for any other raw material.
I'm not going to go too far down the "appeal to authority" road except to say that I've had education and professional experience to tell you that, yes, I very much know what I'm talking about in this specific case. And I'm not talking about the mathematics that TimothyC covered, I'm talking about the so-called "worldbuilding" aspect and the specific means you've gone about it. Namely to ask:

[ img ]

Now if you were writing a full sci-fi novel...no, wait, even then, you can't just blow things up to whatever size you want without some justification. Well...you can, but it'd be completely pointless.

So what purpose does a bigger Earth serve in your AU? To get more resources? That you can handwave with a lot less effort and headache? To make it...for lack of a better term, coolreative (portmanteau: cool/creative, like tacticool)? That's just kinda lazy.

When constructing an AU, if it serves no visible purpose, then it's a waste of time and effort to include it in there.

There's no reason why your AU can't take place in the modern world given whatever historical handwaving you want. And it's clear that you've spent most of your time hammering out the...coolreative...aspects and details without bothering to even put much consideration into what aspects and details you need to create a foundation before you can even flesh things out, let alone before you can settle on whatever seems cool.

I was planning on writing a basic guide to how make ships at least look fairly balanced and how to make aircraft at least be somewhat aerodynamically plausible...but for cripes sake it looks like I need to throw in a basic primer on creative writing onto that pile too, I guess.

(and like I said, I have the educational and professional background to know what I'm talking about + the resources of other members when I find myself outstripped in my own engineering knowledge so at least they won't be totally derp'd).


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APDAF
Post subject: Re: Ave ImperatorPosted: March 6th, 2012, 4:05 pm
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TimothyC wrote:
APDAF wrote:
Yes a heavily modified Earth where a year is ten times longer but if you met someone from this world you could not tell them apart from a normal human.
Also it has five times the surface area, coal, oil and gas will at modern usage levels will take a at least a 1000 years to even run low same for any other raw material.
So it's not Earth at all.

To get 5 times the surface area, your radius has to be √(5) (or about 2.2361) times that of the Earth (area of a Sphere is A=4πr²).

Let us call this new radius r'.

That doesn't sound like much until you remember that the formula for the volume of a sphere is V=4*⅓*π*r³.
Because the volume is a third power function of radius, not a second, the volume is going to grow faster than the surface area it follows that our new volume is V=4*⅓*π*r'³, which is about 11.2 times the volume of the original.

This wouldn't be a problem, but the force of gravity is linearly related to the gravitational constant G and the product of the masses of the two objects and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the centers of the objects.

If we work from the surface of the larger object, and assume that the objects are of sufficiently different size (say a planet is the larger object, and anything not mega-meter scale is the smaller one), the distance between the centers can be approximated by the radius of the larger object (which we had defined earlier as r). The formula is F=G(mₑ*mₓ)/(r²) where mₑ is the mass of the planet, mₓ is the mass of the smaller object, G is the gravitational constant (Thanks Sir Issac!).

The Mass of the planet is linearly dependent on it's volume and it's density. m=vρ if the density (ρ) is the same, then the increase in mass is proportional to the increase in volume (or, 5^(3/2))Going forward, if we call the mass of the new planet mᵦ we find that mᵦ is 5^(3/2) times mₑ. Plugging this into the Gravity equation (along with substitution of r' for r) we find that the force of gravity on your world is going to be 5^½ times that of Earth (~2.24 times that of Earth - the acceleration due to gravity is now greater than 20 meters per second per second). Everything changes.

EVERYTHING.

Why are we even talking about this?


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Zephyr
Post subject: Re: Ave ImperatorPosted: March 6th, 2012, 4:10 pm
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My guess would be because its a topic that interests a few folk? Of course, once he hit that first equation, I started to get a headache. Maybe thats why I got my degree in history, advanced maths makes my eyes bleed. ;)

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Dilandu
Post subject: Re: Ave ImperatorPosted: March 6th, 2012, 4:12 pm
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Quote:
Why are we even talking about this?
Um ... maybe just because we're smart people? And we really understand what are talking about?

Have you any idea what do you say, when you are talking about the size of your planet?!

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Rhade
Post subject: Re: Ave ImperatorPosted: March 6th, 2012, 4:16 pm
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Dilandu wrote:
And we really understand what are talking about?
I will not go that far ...

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Thiel
Post subject: Re: Ave ImperatorPosted: March 6th, 2012, 4:54 pm
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TimothyC wrote:
Well there is an assumption that I stated that probably wouldn't hold true. I'm curious if anyone can spot it.
Density.

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APDAF
Post subject: Re: Ave ImperatorPosted: March 6th, 2012, 5:05 pm
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klagldsf wrote:
...ok....

Trunked funnel thing aside (and BTW aside from what TimothyC wrote it also helps keep your topweight and top-moment [i.e., center of gravity] down) and asbestos thing aside (and BTW it was still used as a fireproofing material in non-accessable places until actually very recently; the reason why people make a big stink about it is not for the people who live or board in buildings or ships but for the people eventually tasked with dismantling them + the overreacting "think of the children!" crowd - hell it was still used for some fireproof suits that you'd actually wear until recently because it was more practical to come up with clever ways to keep the asbestos sealed than it was to find a fireproof material better than asbestos) there's something that needs to be addressed with your whole big Earth thing, and it's aside from what TimothyC already said about that too:
APDAF wrote:
Yes a heavily modified Earth where a year is ten times longer but if you met someone from this world you could not tell them apart from a normal human.
Also it has five times the surface area, coal, oil and gas will at modern usage levels will take a at least a 1000 years to even run low same for any other raw material.
I'm not going to go too far down the "appeal to authority" road except to say that I've had education and professional experience to tell you that, yes, I very much know what I'm talking about in this specific case. And I'm not talking about the mathematics that TimothyC covered, I'm talking about the so-called "worldbuilding" aspect and the specific means you've gone about it. Namely to ask:

[ img ]

Now if you were writing a full sci-fi novel...no, wait, even then, you can't just blow things up to whatever size you want without some justification. Well...you can, but it'd be completely pointless.

So what purpose does a bigger Earth serve in your AU? To get more resources? That you can handwave with a lot less effort and headache? To make it...for lack of a better term, coolreative (portmanteau: cool/creative, like tacticool)? That's just kinda lazy.

When constructing an AU, if it serves no visible purpose, then it's a waste of time and effort to include it in there.

There's no reason why your AU can't take place in the modern world given whatever historical handwaving you want. And it's clear that you've spent most of your time hammering out the...coolreative...aspects and details without bothering to even put much consideration into what aspects and details you need to create a foundation before you can even flesh things out, let alone before you can settle on whatever seems cool.

I was planning on writing a basic guide to how make ships at least look fairly balanced and how to make aircraft at least be somewhat aerodynamically plausible...but for cripes sake it looks like I need to throw in a basic primer on creative writing onto that pile too, I guess.

(and like I said, I have the educational and professional background to know what I'm talking about + the resources of other members when I find myself outstripped in my own engineering knowledge so at least they won't be totally derp'd).
I am going to do more that one nation in the AU there are only six.


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ezgo394
Post subject: Re: Ave ImperatorPosted: March 6th, 2012, 6:08 pm
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Now this is just a suggestion but why not stop what you are doing, and downsize? Work on a smaller, more feasible AU and then understand the concept of things and what people are trying to tell you. I mean sure, you can just handwave everything about it, but that doesn't make it any fun. The whole concept behind an AU is to create a fictional, yet plausible enough country or countries so that it could actually be passed off as the real thing. Now, I will admit my first AU, the Isle of Texas, was not very plausible, like yours, and was a country of 20 million people that had a navy bigger than the US Navy. No matter how hard I tried, I could never answer the questions that people were throwing at me, becuase it wasn't plausible. Handwaving is the easy way around things, and also the lazy way.

I'm telling you now, as a friend, to STOP. Think about these things. The history and the environment is just as important as the ships that you draw because it defines what the ships are. Why make the earth 5 times as big, when the one we have is perfectly fine? Why not work with the earth we have, and the geography that we have? Why don't you just modify the history within the past 200 years, rather than the past 200 million years?

Look, all I'm saying is stop what you're doing, downsize, scrap it, do something different, something more plausible, because what you have is not going anywhere, and will not go anywhere. That's why I scrapped IoT long ago, and started from scratch. Take the advice that is given to you, and use it. Don't ignore it, and more importantly don't handwave it. If you don't understand something someone telss you, then ask! Everyone here is willing to help, but you need to be willing to listen. If not you will make yourself look like a fool and people will ignore you.

I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just trying to help you. You can take this advice, or leave it. It's your choice.

That's just my 2 cents.

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I am not very active on the forums anymore, but work is still being done on my AUs. Visit the Salidan Altiverse Page on the SB Wiki for more information. All current work is being done on Google Docs.
If anyone wishes for their nations to interact with the countries of the Salidan Altiverse, please send me a PM, after which we can further discuss through email.


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